LonesomePolecat: Asshole

[Desmostylus]

On the one hand we have the posters defending the actions of the US, in some hypothetical situation where they were fired upon, and had no choice but to fire back.

On the other hand, we have some posters saying that even if the Iraqis weren’t actually firing at US troops, they deserved to die because they were firing guns, which is a stupid thing to do in a war zone/occupied country/whatever.

But on my third hand, I have the accounts of the people on the ground:

Iraqis Say U.S. Attacked Wedding Party
Friday May 21, 2004

RAMADI, Iraq (AP) - Revelers at the wedding party began worrying when they heard aircraft overhead at about 9 p.m. With jets still overhead two hours later, they told the band to stop playing and everyone went to bed.

``We began to expect some kind of catastrophe,’’ said Madhi Nawaf, who lives in the area near Mogr el-Deeb on the Syrian border.

The first bomb hit well after midnight and the barrage didn’t stop until nearly sunrise, witnesses told The Associated Press. In the end, up to 45 people were killed in the attack Wednesday, mostly women and children from the Bou Fahad tribe.

Mothers died with their children in their arms,'' said Nawaf. One was his daughter. I found her a few steps from the house, her 2-year-old son Raad in her arms. Her 1-year-old son, Raed, was lying nearby, missing his head.’’

The United States has insisted the target was a safehouse for infiltrators slipping across the border to fight coalition soldiers in Iraq. In Baghdad, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, coalition deputy chief of operations, repeated that claim Thursday, but said the U.S. military would investigate after Iraqi officials reported the survivors’ story.

[griffen2]

dnoonan

Of course! If one were in Iraq and heard automatic machine gun fire, the first thought that would enter one’s mind would be " was that celebratory fire, or aggressive fire?" At that point, they would get out their manual instruments in order to determine where the ordnance came from. After several minutes of careful computations and social evaluations, they might decide that the missiles were aimed for them! After several rounds of authorized decision making, one of the soldiers might, might actually shoot back.

Otherwise, we could assume that such discharges of automatic firearms were nothing other than displays of patriotism. That’s never wrong is it?

Don’t be a moron. This like the fourth time in two years that boneheaded US pilots have shot up a wedding by mistake. If they weren’t 100% sure that it was enemy fire they should have backed the fuck off.

[LonesomePolecat]

I must say this is a pretty sorry excuse for a pitting. I finally get a Pit thread in my honor, and I’m not even the star of the show. This is supposed to be about * me, * and yet here you are talking about actual ideas and issues and stuff. I mean, come on, you guys, after almost five years I finally get pitted and all I get is this? If you’ve just got to talk about all those other things, couldn’t you at least add a sentence or two about how racist, sexist and/or homophobic I am? Or at least a cheap shot or two about my hygiene or my ancestry? This is supposed to be * my * moment in the spotlight.

It’s all about * me. * Remember that, dammit.

[Desmostylus]

@LonesomePolecat

If you’ve just got to talk about all those other things, couldn’t you at least add a sentence or two about how racist, sexist and/or homophobic I am? Or at least a cheap shot or two about my hygiene or my ancestry? This is supposed to be my moment in the spotlight.

You’re an asshole. No more, no less. I think I mentioned the ashole thing somewhere in the OP.

[yojimbo]

Ah now come on. He’s a bit of a twunt aswell,

[Shodan]

@LonesomePolecat

This is supposed to be * my * moment in the spotlight.

It’s all about * me. * Remember that, dammit.

Actually, no, it is about Bush. All Pittings, sooner or later, wind up being about Bush.

I hope that helps, you camel-molesting son of perdition.

Liberal - my nephew is no longer in Iraq. He is in Afghanistan (again), where he recently won his second Bronze Star. Anyone who thinks of Special Forces, or the US military in general, as mindless killbots is as stupid and bigotted as the contempible bitch who posted this filth -

Do you really think, especially given recent examples of the failure of army intellegence and the POW mess, that the US army is capable of doing more than ‘shoot to kill when see or hear enemy with gun’?

Demostylus - it was a racist and bigotted lie when you first posted it, it is an ugly, bigotted and racist lie now, and it will be equally so every time you repeat it. If you put your mind to it, work hard, and completely turn your life around, in a couple of years you might improve yourself to the point that you are worthy to lick the come off peep-show booth floors.

But I wouldn’t bet on it.

Regards,
Shodan

[MMI]

Shodan: What actions should be taken between hearing gunfire and calling in airstrikes?

[MMI]

More generally, does anyone have a copy of the rules of engagement - I am googling now, but with little success.

[Banquet_Bear]

@MMI

More generally, does anyone have a copy of the rules of engagement - I am googling now, but with little success.

from HRW:

A laminated card with the following text was distributed to all U.S. Army and Marine personnel in Iraq.

CFLCC ROE CARD

# On order, enemy military and paramilitary forces are declared hostile and may be attacked subject to the following instructions:

a) Positive identification (PID) is required prior to engagement. PID is a reasonable certainty that the proposed target is a legitimate military target. If no PID, contact your next higher commander for decision

b) Do not engage anyone who has surrendered or is out of battle due to sickness or wounds.

c) Do not target or strike any of the following except in self-defense to protect yourself, your unit, friendly forces, and designated persons or property under your control:

Civilians

Hospitals, mosques, national monuments, and any other historical and cultural sites.

d) Do not fire into civilian populated areas or buildings unless the enemy is using them for military purposes or if necessary for your self-defense. Minimize collateral damage.

e) Do not target enemy infrastructure (public works, commercial communication facilities, dams), Lines of Communication (roads, highways, tunnels, bridges, railways) and Economic Objects (commercial storage facilities, pipelines) unless necessary for self-defense or if ordered by your commander. If you must fire on these objects to engage a hostile force, disable and disrupt but avoid destruction of these objects, if possible.

# The use of force, including deadly force, is authorized to protect the following:

Yourself, your unit, and friendly forces

Enemy Prisoners of War

Civilians from crimes that are likely to cause death or serious bodily harm, such as murder or rape

Designated civilians and/or property, such as personnel of the Red Cross/Crescent, UN, and US/UN supported organizations

3. Treat all civilians and their property with respect and dignity. Do not seize civilian property, including vehicles, unless you have the permission of a company level commander and you give a receipt to the property’s owner.

   Detain civilians if they interfere with mission accomplishment or if required for self-defense.

   CENTCOM General Order No. 1A remains in effect. Looting and the taking of war trophies are prohibited.

REMEMBER

* Attack enemy forces and military targets.
* Spare civilians and civilian property, if possible.
* Conduct yourself with dignity and honor.
* Comply with the Law of War. If you see a violation, report it.

These ROE will remain in effect until your commander orders you to transition to post-hostilities ROE.

AS OF 311330Z JAN 03

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/usa1203/11.htm#_Toc57442300

[Bippy_the_Beardless]

@LonesomePolecat

Oh, wow. I’ve been pitted by a gaggle of quislings and eunuchs. My feelings are so hurt.

You are a Jerk.

[furt]

@Estilicon

It’s a pity there isn’t, to my kowledge, any irakis in these boards.

We do have access to several dozen Iraqi blogs (see here and see the blogroll on the right). Interestingly, as of this morning not one of them has yet commented on the whole incident. I’m only mildly suprised to see that they’re better at waiting for the facts than the “of course America is innocent” and “of course America is guilty” asshats that have been spouting off here.

We still don’t know what happened. All we’re seeing on these boards is brainless partisan finger-pointing from the usual suspects.

[Shodan]

@MMI

Shodan: What actions should be taken between hearing gunfire and calling in airstrikes?

The SDMB’s Rules of Engagement for the Military Monsters Currently Repressing the Noble People of Iraq
[ul][li]First, clearly identify yourself as a member of the Evil Murderers. Jumping up and down and shouting to get their attention first is a good idea.[/li][li]Read them their rights from the following list:[/li]

• You have the right to shoot at me, all others things being equal, because Bush stole the election.
  - You have the right to remain silent, unless someone from al-Jazeera needs you to tell how the US military in Iraq eats babies, murders women and rapes camels.
  - You have the right to be automatically believed by every leftist loon in the world, providing you change your story no more than three (3) times.
  • If you so desire and cannot afford one, a government will be provided to you at no cost before any shooting.

[li]Dial headquarters and get permission to return fire. Be sure to file forms 38-403888403/a/b62, 441-88383/b/c63, and BS10-144-2a2 in triplicate. Use a number two pencil, and be sure to say “Captain May I?” or you lose and have to go to the end of the line. [/li][li]Once you have secured the necessary paperwork (you need to get it stamped in the Official Atrocities Permission Office in downtown Baghdad - office hours are 8:00-5:00 M-F and 8:00-12:00 on Saturdays), you may return fire. You need to pin an official target to the back of each of your innocent victims - your squad leader has an ample supply. Each target must be notarized. [/li][li] Please fire no more than one bullet at a time, and file form 222-A for each round expended. [/li][li]Be aware that it may be difficult to distinguish between an Iraqi wedding and a firefight. Usually, an Iraqi wedding has at least one person without a beard, although if the gay marriage fad spreads to Iraq as well, this may no longer be sufficient proof. The only currently certain method of determining is to look for the traditional bucket of shit at every Iraqi wedding. This is used to keep the flies off the bride.[/li][li]It is traditional in Iraqi culture to apologize for overthrowing any of the current bloodthirsty tyrants and ending their reign of terror. While it is not strictly necessary to apologize after every shot, you may wish to behead yourself at the end of a fight as a gesture of respect for the local culture. Any one of a number of the locals will be happy to assist you.[/li][li]Please remember that you have a responsibility to maintain respect for the local mores and customs. Therefore, do not show the bottoms of your shoes to anyone you catch attempting to kill you, and, if you should happen to capture someone who feeds people feet-first into plastic shredders, be sure not to shave him. Some things are simply over the line.[/ul][/li]
If you keep these few simple rules in mind, your tour of duty in Iraq will be both more pleasant, and shorter. Much, much shorter.

Regards,
Shodan

[furt]

Usually, an Iraqi wedding has at least one person without a beard, although if the gay marriage fad spreads to Iraq as well, this may no longer be sufficient proof. The only currently certain method of determining is to look for the traditional bucket of shit at every Iraqi wedding. This is used to keep the flies off the bride.

Shodan, my respect for you just dropped a couple of notches. That was pretty damned ugly.

[yojimbo]

Wow.

[TwistofFate]

what a hateful little man you are Shodan.

[duffer]

Shodan, I generally agree with you. Now this may hurt your credibility,and if so I’m sorry. That last post is right on! I’m printing it out (sans The SDMB association). I strive for your passion in my posts with the eloquence of Wang-Ka. (I never said I was an easy study, folks)

But given the two I strive to be, I feel I may just have to stick with the masturbation threads. (See my MPSIMS OP)

[Lynn_Bodoni]

Shodan, do not use hate speech, ethnic or racial slurs, or similar language on the SDMB.

Lynn
For the Straight Dope

[Shodan]

You are all correct. The bucket joke was out of line, and I apologize.

Regards,
Shodan

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Liberal

But due respect, it doesn’t really answer the question. He can’t exactly run to the Lieutenant when he hears gunfire and refuse to fight because he’d only end up in prison. So what is your immediate tactical, rather than long term strategic, advice to him?

Due respect, it does answer the question. My advice to my relative would continue to be the same: because you’re ina war with unclear enemies, and the very real possibility that you’ll commit the irrevocable act of killing an innocent person, you need to get the hell out of there.

Pronto. Right away. Toot suite.

Patrolling an area in your fighter jet and you hear fire coming from the ground, and you can’t tell the source of it? Turn your ass around, hightail it out of there, get back to base, and start filling out that CO application.

I’m dead serious. We shouldn’t be there. My family shouldn’t be there. Someone who finds themselves in the army there needs to get out of there.

No matter how far you’ve gone down the wrong road, turn back now.

Shodan, I’ll keep in mind for future discussions with you exactly how low you set the bar for calling people racist.

Daniel

[LonesomePolecat]

@Bippy the Beardless

You are a Jerk.

Hey, I gotta be me.