Long-distance transmission of electricity

Some will probably consider this a silly question. But it’s something that’s been bugging me off and on for years.

I’ve never been able to figure out how, exactly, AC electricity can be sent over long distances. And it’s precisely because of the switching of the current. The way I envision it is this–
For the first 1/60th (or whatever, depending on where you live) of a second, the current flows outward from the generator. But then the current switches. What prevents it from just flowing right back to the generator? How does it actually travel anywhere?

The current doesn’t need to switch in order for the energy to be transferred. You can build a DC system that can deliver electricity over hundreds of miles. (In fact, some exist.)

And don’t get hung up over the current. The power plant produces a voltage. The current is simply the result of the voltage and the characteristics of the loads.

current flows back to the source in all cases, even with DC. otherwise you wouldn’t have a complete circuit. AC simply reverses the polarity sinusoidally 60 times per second (in North America; 50 in most of the rest of the world.) Think about a light bulb. connect it to a DC source, with (+) on the center pin, and (-) on the threaded sleeve which screws into the socket. Lights up, right? now reverse the connections. Still lights up. the filament doesn’t care which direction current flows through it. you just need it to alternate quickly enough so that there’s no perceptible flicker.

second, historically AC has been the only way to transmit power over long distances, via transformers. Transformers work on the principle that a current through a conductor sets up a magnetic field around it, and a changing magnetic field induces a current in a conductor. Transformers don’t work for DC power transmission because the magnetic field created by the current through the primary coil never changes. with AC, the current through the primary is always changing, which induces a current in the secondary coil of the same frequency and at a voltage multiplied (or divided) by the ratio of turns of wire of primary:secondary.

Think of this a bicycle chain with a white spot on one link. For this example there’s a device that performs work when this spot passes by. If you work the pedals in one direction the spot passes by the device. That’s DC.

If on the other hand you move the pedals back and forth the white spot still passes the device and work is done. That’s AC. It’s not the best explanation I know.

GaryM

AC devices simply utilize the reversing current.

A DC motor is designed for a steady voltage. If you feed it AC, it will indeed try to oscillate back and forth and will not function. In an AC motor, the armature turns a specific amount in that 1/60 of a second, when the current reverses, the armature has moved to the next position and the wires in those coils are wound in the other direction so the armature still turns in the same direction. The AC motor spins at a precise rpm locked to the frequency of the power. A DC motor will just keep going faster and faster if you increase the voltage.

Electronics devices convert the alternating current into DC with a rectifier, then use that DC to power everything.

Denny

I think an excellent image to start with. But the way Flyer posed the question makes me think we need to include additional details surrounding the non-instantaneous nature of the energy transfer.

Whether you’re transmitting DC or AC you’re not getting energy instantly at the other end the moment you close the circuit at the generator end. The generator tries to push electrons into one wire* and pull them out of the other. This starts a wave of excess electrons moving down the first wire, and a wave of electron depletion starting down the other. These waves move at over 50% of light speed, so by the time the generator switches the direction of push/pull, the point of maximum voltage difference is at least 1250 km away. The actual electrons in the wire on the other hand barely move at all.

The 1250 km/quarter cycle is close enough for “instantaneous” in most circumstances, but the point is that AC energy travels as a wave and that the electrons barely move. (And there’s some fun electronics stuff related to the fact that an electric energy source doesn’t know at the time of connection whether you’re connecting it to a open or closed circuit. The wave will start flowing regardless and if it meets a dead end it will slosh back like a wave in a pool. Sometimes with undesirable results.)

you’re conflating multiple types of motors here.

only true for a motor where the magnetic field is provided by permanent magnets and the armature has a commutator. a commutated universal motor where the field is provided by wound field coils in series with the armature will work with DC or AC.

only true for a synchronous AC motor, which is typically used in things like clocks and timers. an AC induction motor’s speed is capped by the AC mains frequency divided by the # of poles per phase, but is not “locked” to the mains frequency. the armature is always experiencing “slip”; i.e. the rotor turns at less than the speed of the stator field. otherwise it couldn’t produce any torque.

a series universal motor (like in your Dremel or vacuum cleaner) will run faster and faster based on voltage whether it’s being supplied with AC or DC. it’s part of the reason things like Dremel tools and drills have an internal fan; partly for cooling, and partly to provide some load to keep the motor from running so fast it destroys itself.

Current doesn’t travel like the OP seems to envision. Think of it more as a tube filled with marbles. Push a marble in one end and another pops out of the other end, but you didn’t push a marble all the way through the tube. Current is kinda like that, except that it’s electrons moving and electrons don’t behave exactly like marbles. The electrons get pushed from atom to atom. Since you can’t magically create electrons to shove into one end of the “tube” (wire), this only works if there’s a “loop”, aka a circuit. The generator doesn’t shove electrons into the end, like the marble example, but instead just causes the electrons to move, leaving holes behind. The electrons all around the circuit all move in one big loop, and when it gets back around to where it started, those moving electrons fill in the holes. Picture a string of atoms in a circle, and the electrons all hopping from atom to atom around the circle. If you break the circle, the electrons can’t hop across the gap, and everything stops.

We use AC instead of DC because wires aren’t superconductors. Since wires aren’t superconductors, electricity going through them gets turned into waste heat. If you are trying to move a lot of electricity from one place to another and you have a really long distance to go and a lot of wire, that wire generates a lot of heat and a lot of that electricity gets wasted. The amount of electricity that gets wasted in heat is proportional to the current that goes through the wires, not proportional to the total energy that goes through the wires. The total power, which is current times voltage, has to stay the same. If you make something that can double the voltage, then the current will be cut in half. If you can make the voltage 10 times bigger, then the current will be 1/10th.

This device that steps the voltage up or down is called a transformer, and this is why we use AC instead of DC to overcome resistance in the wires. An AC transformer is just two coils of wire around a hunk of iron. There is no simple DC transformer. In the old days, they could make DC transformers by using a motor connected to a generator, but that wastes a lot of energy spinning the motor/generator set, and a motor/generator set is a lot more expensive than two coils of wire around a hunk of iron. These days we can make DC transformers using high power semiconductors, but still, they aren’t cheap. AC transformers are always simpler and cheaper.

So here’s how it works. You step up the voltage by a factor of say 100. That steps the current down by a factor of 100. The electricity lost in the wire is proportional to the current squared, so you reduce the electricity lost in the wires by a huge amount. Then at the other end, you step the voltage back down by a factor of 100 so that it’s back to what it started as, and the current gets stepped back up by a factor of 100 so that your overall power going through the system is the same. Sure you’ve made the system more complex by adding transformers, but now you can move the electricity from one place to another over distances without a huge loss in the wires.

This is exactly what Edison and Tesla/Westinghouse ran into. Edison’s DC systems for electric lighting only worked in areas where the lighting ran for short distances, because at longer distances the system just lost too much energy in the wires and the lights were too dim. By using transformers all over the place, Tesla and Westinghouse were able to light up entire towns even when the buildings and houses were farther apart.

So that’s what we use today. Power from the generating plant is stepped up to very large voltages by transformers and are sent over power “transmission lines”, which are those big metal towers. The voltages there are typically anywhere from about 50,000 volts to half a million volts and higher. At the end of the transmission line, the voltage gets stepped down using transformers at a substation, and is sent out through “distribution lines” which distribute the electricity through the buildings and neighborhoods. Distribution lines are the type you see on wooden telephone poles, though more and more often they are now being built or moved underground. Distribution lines typically operate at somewhere between 3,000 and 12,000 volts, though some are a bit higher than that. All along the distribution lines, individual transformers step the voltage down to 120/240 volts (it’s called a split phase transformer) which then typically feeds three or four houses. If you have overhead lines in your neighborhood, the transformers are big metal cans that hang on the poles. If your distribution lines are underground, the transformers will be in big metal boxes on the ground.

DC does have some advantages over AC. With AC, you lose energy due to capacitance and inductance in the wire, which you don’t lose with DC. Also, AC power lines have to be designed for the peak voltage of the AC sine wave, but you effectively only get the RMS value out of it for its effective energy. A DC power line can always run at peak voltage. It doesn’t vary in a sine wave like AC does. What this means is that you can push more power through the same wire using DC instead of AC. But, even with modern technology, there’s still no simple DC transformer. Switches also are easier to use with AC instead of DC. At high voltages, when you open a switch, the electricity tends to draw an arc. With AC, the sine wave goes to zero twice during each sine wave cycle, which will naturally extinguish this arc. DC is constant, which means that the arc doesn’t naturally extinguish, requiring some fancier and more expensive switch designs to make it work.

What this means is that at short distances, the cost of DC transformers and switchgear is too great, and you don’t save enough money with your wire and insulation standoffs etc. costs to make DC worthwhile. At longer distances though, you save enough in wire/insulators and extra power going through the line that you can offset the extra costs of the transformers and switchgear, making long distance DC power transmission actually cheaper than AC. AC also loses a huge amount of power due to inductive and capacitive losses when going through underwater cables, so DC is often used for underwater lines even when the distances are shorter.

This is all a bit technical, so if I didn’t explain something very well, feel free to ask questions.

“What this means is that at short distances, the cost of DC transformers and switchgear is too great, and you don’t save enough money with your wire and insulation standoffs etc. costs to make DC worthwhile. At longer distances though, you save enough in wire/insulators and extra power going through the line that you can offset the extra costs of the transformers and switchgear, making long distance DC power transmission actually cheaper than AC. AC also loses a huge amount of power due to inductive and capacitive losses when going through underwater cables, so DC is often used for underwater lines even when the distances are shorter.”

Is this right, or did you get some shorts and longs mixed up?

Can you tell me why the transformer at the end of my road, that used to half fill a plot around 4 metres by 4 metres, is now just a small cabinet?

Speaking of long-distance electricity transmission, what are the chances of improvements for this?

Right now, transmission lines (AC or DC) have too great a loss for distances over very long distances to be practical.

This, for example, makes solar power generation in the Sahara Desert, where it would be most efficient, impractical to transmit to Japan, Brazil, or Norway.

If this limitation were removed, things would be quite different. You could generate power wherever it was most efficient regardless of the final customer’s location. What are the chances of very long distance electrical power transmission becoming substantially cheaper?

I’m not an expert, but higher frequency transformers are much smaller than low (60 Hz) transformers. Many aircraft systems use higher frequency AC because of significant weight savings.

GaryM

Almost same chances as fuel cells producing commercial scale power, or battery technology to use solar power during night or battery technology to use wind power during day.

In the meantime, a combined cycle power plant running on Liquefied Natural gas will do a great job. So will a nuclear power plant. Japan is already doing that and China is getting more into Liquefied Natural Gas.

I think it’s right. Maybe I’m not explaining it very well. Let me try again.

Let’s say you are trying to ship a bunch of electricity from point A to point B. You have two choices. You can go with AC, which has very simple transformers at each end, but for a given amount of power, the wire and insulation etc. costs more. Or you can go with DC, which has much more expensive transformers and switchgear at each end, but for the same amount of power, the wire and insulation etc. costs less. At shorter distances, the wire savings for DC is less then the costs of the transformers, etc. so it’s not cost effective to use DC over the shorter distance. At longer distances, the wire savings are greater than the transformer costs, so it becomes cheaper to use DC at the longer distance.

Inductive and capacitive losses underwater are huge compared to on land, so when you are dealing with underwater lines, the wire loss difference is huge. This makes the distance at which DC becomes the better choice much shorter than it would be on land.

No idea. Residential transformers haven’t changed much in a very long time. They are filled with oil to keep them cool and to prevent internal arcing between the wires, but other than that they are pretty simple. They are still just coils of wire around hunks of iron, very simple and very cheap.

There has been a lot of research into solid state transformers for residential use, but as far as I’m aware those are still in the development stages. Maybe some are more advanced than I realized and are being installed in your area? I dunno. Just a guess.

Solid state transformers promise to be significantly smaller and lighter, and also can be made to be “smart”, adjusting for things like voltage sags due to heavy loads (like a hot day when everyone switches their air conditioning on) and giving much more info to the power company about how they are performing so that the electric utility can adjust things very quickly, and can keep things running more efficiently with a faster response to problems.

The last I heard though, these weren’t quite ready for prime time yet.

no, he’s right. stepping DC voltages up and down requires more complicated solid-state DC-DC converters, and for local (short distance) transmission they’re more expensive than simple AC transformers. Over long distances, however, the reactive losses of AC cost more than DC-DC conversion so using HVDC for long-distance transmission is more economical.

The first statement is correct. But missing from your otherwise excellent summation is the other thing the OP really isn’t getting: why current powers anything to begin with. That’s what’s causing the confusion.

In the short term, it ain’t gonna happen. In the long term, who knows?

When I started as an electrical engineer a few decades ago, the highest voltage transmission lines were up around half a million volts. Now they are up around three or four times that. The cost of DC transformers and switchgear has also been dramatically reduced.

Solar panels have also become a lot less expensive and a lot more reliable and longer lasting. If they can ever get to the holy grail of better battery storage, distributed solar systems with panels on rooftops and all around neighborhoods could one day replace centralized power generation.

Things could change rather dramatically in the next 50 to 100 years.

The closest (but not perfect) analogy to think of is like when you are in a swimming pool and you spot a floating rubber ducky some distance from you. You can bob your hand up and down in the water and that will make a wave that will bob the rubber ducky bob up and down. The power plant generator is like your hand in the pool and the motors in your house are like the rubber ducky.

I think much of the confusion is due to the inability to understand how electrons can “deliver” energy. And the answer is: they don’t. The energy in a transmission line really resides in the fields around the wires, not in the electrons. This is true for AC and DC. The physics behind this is described in Maxwell’s Equations.

As I understand it, even “DC transformers” are still actually AC. They start by converting the DC input to extremely high-frequency AC, then transform the AC using conventional magnetic transformers, and then convert it back to DC. The big difference is that since the frequency is so high, the transformer can be very small.

All right, let me try this.

There are only a couple of main principles involved here for stuff that is in your home.

The first is that anything that isn’t a superconductor absorbs energy when electrical current is passed through it. This is how light bulbs work, and this is how resistive heating works for things like electric baseboard heat, electric element heat pumps, the heating element on your stove, etc.

The second principle is that if you run current through an electrical conductor, you create a magnetic field. This is how motors work, and how relays work, and all kinds of stuff. It’s also reversible in that if you move an electrical conductor through a magnetic field you make current. So if you take your motor, and instead of using it as a motor, you physically spin it, it becomes a generator (not for all types of motors though - it depends on how they are made).

So let’s start with the second principle, and make a generator. You spin it, it makes electricity. It tends to put out a fairly constant voltage, and there are ways of regulating the voltage by varying the magnetic field inside the generator (but that’s probably a bit too advanced for this discussion). Anyway, if there’s nothing connected to the generator, it spins freely and no current is generated. If you connect an electrical load (light bulb, motor, whatever), the voltage from the generator causes current to flow through the load. The generator also becomes physically harder to turn. Your generator doesn’t create any power. All it does is convert mechanical power into electrical power.

Now you’ve got a generator making electrical power out of mechanical power, that electrical power goes through the transformers and wires and gets to your load, where the power either gets turned into heat and/or light, as in the case of heating elements and light bulbs, or it gets used to create a magnetic field which pushes against something and makes motion, as in the case of motors.

Does that help?