My son, doing a 4th grade report for school on the California Gold Rush, was disappointed to learn that our family did not immigrate here or come looking for gold. As my cousin put it, we were already here, looking for food. Not a lot of migrant workers in the family----we were always here.
Oh yeah, they’re going to break the law anyway so just remove the law? :rolleyes:
You sir, are a moron
Cleosia I think nailed this on the head. There are ways to encourage people to work in the fields, just nobody wants to force the issue, since its “solved” by illegals.
I’m thinking that getting into an accident when you are not legally able to have a license should be punished with jail time.
Illegal for chineese to immigrate here? What years?
And the INS owes us an apology for letting that one get by.
Uh what governmental body determined our illegality? Did congress beat the first settlers somehow? Or was there a " No European immigration" law passed by the indians? :rolleyes:
Let me guess, you just finished 12th grade Economics. Take this to GD and prepare to be drowned in a pool of your own ignorance and be struck repeatedly with a clue by four.
Ooooh, could you email me a pic so I can give it to PD? Protesters with concealed weapons, on government property.
That would be the Olive street branch in Fresno, Ca.
Yes officer thats him over there.
Our government loves armed protest, isn’t that called a revolution.
Seriously, dude. **
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Kamandi, I was going to credit Scott Adams that but I saw you hit it while I was previewing 
Thanks for the info on work VISA’s Theres gotta be some kind of exception for farm labor, I was under the impression that there were hundreds of thousands if not millions of legal immigrant workers. I consulted your link and it makes mention of employers making a “request for use of immigrant labor” maybe they get a rough idea of how many farm work visas are needed based on this.
Duhhhhhhhhhhh
Let me guess, you didn’t manage to pass 12th grade History. Ask this question in GD and prepare to be drowned in a pool of your own ignorance and be struck repeatedly with a clue by four. Actually, someone would probably just give you a civil and polite answer, because many people there actually have manners. Jerk.
Uh, I speak from (considerable) personal experiance when I say that a valid driver’s license is not required to obtain insurance. In fact, in my case at least, the lack of one did not even raise my premiums. At least here in CA.
tclouie
What planet is this you live on? I’d say, in my years of driving for a living around here, it’s prime BS.
Are you saying that people with valid licences are more likely to flee than those with no licence, or that they flee with equal frequency? And what does your diving for a living have to do with anything? Are you an EMT or a police officer?
The OP reminds me of a story.
When I was a Freshman in college I lived in a small dorm that was across the way from a meeting room that was used by various campus groups throughout the year. On the Friday afternoon before Finals, the INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service) decided to hold a job fair in the meeting room. A small number of protesters showed up to hold an anti-INS rally. They were loudly chanting while we were trying to study. A couple of us went down and politely asked them to demonstrate quietly. They were just outside of our home afterall. I was told by one protestor to fuck off. My collegue was actually spat at by another protestor. We were furious. Their chanting outside of our windows made it impossible to study.
To get even, we staged a sarcastic pro-INS rally. We were very obviously tongue in cheek as we sang God Bless America and ran around with an American flag. The INS left at 5:00 and so did the protestors. We went back to studying and didn’t think anymore about it.
When the next quater started the leftist newspaper printed a story about the incident and the fucking liars referred to us as “right wing counter-demonstrators.” They knew god damned well that we were reacting to their incredible, selfish rudeness. Of course, they never printed my rebuttal to the article. Several years later when I was in Grad School the same leftist newspaper had their 20th Anniversary. They printed a list of the worst attacks against the Left in the last 20 years on campus. Guess what, our “counter-demonstration” made it onto the list. Now it’s a fact.
Haj
In Tennessee, its perfectly legal to drive a car without insurance. The problem, of course, is that the law states if you do have a wreck, then its automatically your fault (unless the other driver is also uninsured). As for them getting deported, this is the story I was told by a cop during my term as a bullet-catcher (i.e. I worked 3rd shift in a stop-n-rob). According to the cop, unless the illegal did a serious crime INS couldn’t be bothered to come and get them. Generally, when INS decided to do a “round up” they’d start at one end of the state and work their way to the other, picking up whomever they happened to catch. No systemic enforcement.
Also, I carded some guys from Mexico one time who were buying beer and the guy showed me an ID card issued by the Mexican government for its citizens who were going outside the country! I have no idea if he was in the US legally or not, or if the ID was legit or not. It looked it, so I sold him the beer (hey, he was of age!).
As an American of European descent, I’m not going to complain about someone coming here to the US, but I am going to complain about my government not enforcing its own laws. Especially, when they seem to take great pleasure in enforcing the ones on me that I don’t happen to agree with!
Duhhhhh, gawrsh, I know I’m such a fucking moron and not worthy of a response from such a lofty intellect as yourself, but I would appreciate a better argument. I’m making an anti-nationalist, anti-borders argument. I think it would be good for society for all immigrants to have access to all those things. In my opinion, the results would include a diminished gap between rich and poor, better political representation, less anger and alienation in society, and a better standard of living for all. Please state why you think this would not be so.
My views are not mainstream, but everything I said has been argued for years by immigrants’ rights activists, and they are views that I would embrace proudly, publicly, anywhere. Even in the cafeteria at my workplace. Can’t get a much more hostile environment than that! :rolleyes:
I don’t think cleosia quite nailed this. You can’t always simply transform good-paying jobs for citizens into shit-paying jobs for immigrants, although it does happen. One example where cleosia might be right would be the time when LA’s building owners turned their unionized African-American janitor work force into a non-union immigrant work force. But then cleosia turns out to be wrong after all, because those immigrant janitors waged a very militant and successful unionization campaign, proving that immigrant labor doesn’t always depend on shit-wages!
Immigrant jobs are not characterized by low wages so much as they are characterized by FUCKING HARD WORK, especially in agriculture or repetitive-motion manufacturing. It is often hard to get citizens to fill those jobs.
This was answered adequately by White Lightning. Thanks dude!
Cheap shot, ad hominem. Insult is not argument.
Dude…you seem to be making my argument for me! My point was that all immigration laws are based on POWER, not morality, and you’re backing me up. Indians were relatively powerless in the face of the onslaught of “locusts” (as Red Cloud described us), and maybe they were a little too trusting, so they didn’t pass any immigration laws but they did try some ad hoc “border enforcement” with weapons when they got pushed too far. So maybe now White Anglos are afraid of finding themselves in the position of “Indians”. There’s an old Thomas Nast cartoon, drawn soon after the passage of the Chinese Exclusion Act, which shows an Indian saying to a Chinese, “White man 'fraid you push him out, as he did me.” Now, that guy hit the nail on the head!
Once again: migration patterns have nothing to do with morality, and everything to do with economics and political power.To me, immigration laws have no more legitimacy than the segregation laws in the Old South, and I’m happy when people break them, even happier when they get away with it!
Well, it just so happens I’m here in the Pit, so if you know of a valid counter-argument, then make it and stop wishing for your smart friends to bail you out.
Read my post again, I was saying that I would respond very strongly if I saw YOU pull out a gun, in which case you’d be the first guy arrested.
And, since you’re so defensive about the possibility of being called a racist, OK, I won’t call you one. But there are definitely other “isms” that are as harmful as racism. Nationalism, for one. Also ethnocentrism. I would definitely say that your ranting against a large class of people that you don’t know personally makes you bigoted or prejudiced, Hispanic girlfriend or not. (Gawd, what a lame argument! So you have a Latina girlfriend, so what. I’m also going out with a Latina, naturalized but not born here. Big fucking deal.)
But he’s not racist! No, didn’t say that!
Tranquilis: I think calling the Migra on a group of protesters because you don’t like what they’re saying is a particularly despicable way of censoring someone’s free speech. (It’s also used as a method of union-busting.) Most likely, most of the protesters were citizens or legal immigrants – the undocumented tend to stay away from protests. Calling the INS on them would probably result in the harassment of people who look Mexican or fit the “immigrant profile.” There’s already enough profiling in this country.
Cyn: just got a couple of points for you.
In wartime, the military draft has been applied to citizens and RESIDENT ALIENS. That means an undocumented immigrant could be forced to die for this country, too. And all without ever getting to vote or get a driver’s license. A friend’s father once told me a funny story about when he was deported in the middle of WWII. All the Mexicans on the bus were happy and smiling, because they didn’t have to go to war!
And, there are some Latinos who claim to have “always been here,” too. Ever hear of Aztlan?
** tclouie **, are you speaking of Aztlan, California? My grandpa left some land to my dad in Central California, how long ago the family aquired it, I don’t know.
It’s hard to find a workable analogy for the vast open borders, social/ethnic/economic realities involved here. Probably every example is complicated and heartbreaking in its own way.
Seems to me the basic issue is immigration policy, based on the realities of actual people here–including what role they play in the “shadow” economy. (FWIW, there’s a srong and thriving Hipanic population here in the Midwest; migrant agricultural workers who put down roots–and got documented later. Our most celebrated “Hero Street” is dedicated to Hispanics from one neighborhood who died in military service for the U.S.)
I don’t know exactly where I come down on this issue because it’s complicated eight ways for Sunday. But overall my leaning is to not sweat the little stuff. Current immigration laws are pointless and uninforceable. Since real, hard-working people are here already and (mostly) would like nothing more than a chance to settle freely, why make them criminals?
Not saying I don’t understand the frustration behind the OP. Just questioning the context, y’know. People aspiring to drivers’ licenses and insurance aren’t deadbeats: they’re natural resources seeking acceptance.
Veb
If you think the OP is frustrated, how do you think the illegals feel?
I know that sounds crazy, I mean, who cares what they feel?
They are illegal. If they don’t like it then just fuck’em. They don’t belong here anyway.
Except that they do…
The truth of the matter is that we do want illegal immigrants in this country. Our country needs them. We also fear too many of them. If we opened the borders then we would be flooded and the economy would suffer. Wages would drop through the floor. If we clamped down, sealed the borders and started weeding out the illegals, then you would be paying $12 per stawberry and $20,000 to paint your house.
So the way things have been handled is to try and make a gray zone where we stand up publicly and rail against illegal immigration, while at the same time turning a blind eye to 99% of it.
This gives us the flexibility of determining immigration levels without consulting anyone or changing any laws. If we want to crackdown, then we just go ahead and crackdown. If we want more workers, then we go lax on the enforcement.
It also royally screws the illegal immigrant. He comes over here to make money and improve his, and maybe his family’s, living conditions. The deal that is offered to him is simple:
Shut up. Work. Don’t cause any trouble and we will leave you alone. You can rent, but good luck ever trying to buy a house. You can’t vote. You can pay taxes, we will even give you a tax id number for illegal aliens. If you ever apply for citizenship, you’re screwed if you haven’t been paying taxes.
Live your life in fear, because if you piss off someone they just might call INS to come and deport you. If you are lucky, you can last long enough to blend in and maybe get a shot at becoming a citizen. Or maybe you can have children while you are here and they will be citizens.
Of course, if you brought your small children over with you and raise them here, you are setting up a timebomb that will explode when they become an adult. They won’t be citizens, they won’t have a SS# or a birth certificate. They will only have ties to a country that doesn’t recognize them as legal, and could give them the boot at any second.
I don’t support open borders, but if you think we (a universal WE --the entire country) haven’t taken advantage of illegal immigrants every chance we got, then you are not familiar with the way things are. I don’t know the solution, but most illegal immigrants get my respect for working hard in a difficult situation.
Just a little Devil’s Advocate here. Suppose a person were to say, “I don’t want illegal aliens over here, because I’d like to keep my radio in my car.” What would the responses look like? Everything from the relatively calm, “Cite, please, showing that illegals commit more crime than nationals” to the more vehement, “You fucking racist!!”
Now, suppose a person were to say, as has often been said in this thread, “Illegals are hard working individuals.” Where are the cites to support THIS generalization? I know this isn’t GD, but I’d still like to see you come up with cites showing that illegals work hard and follow the laws.
Meh.
Quix
Freedom: good analysis, good post.
quixotic78: sorry, I have no cites, it just comes from my anecdotal experience. All the layabouts I’ve ever known have been citizens, while I’ve known plenty of immigrants who worked two or more jobs. Of course the undocumented have their share of criminals and goof-offs, just like any other population. But I will bet anything, right now, that the undocumented as a group are one of the most productive classes of people in America (in terms of # of paid hours worked). Maybe someone out there can point me to some stats? (It would probably be a private or academic survey, not government stats.)
But even in the absence of cites, consider this: the undocumented, and many of the documented, are not eligible for welfare. It would be very difficult to be a sponger.
Cites? This is the pit, I don’t need a cite:)
I wouldn’t know where to begin to find a cite. I’m using personal experience.
I’m in a proffesion that brings me into contact with spanish workers everyday. I meet a great deal of different workers, and I see how they interact with each other. I see how they treat the hard workers and slackers among themselves.
They live in poor neighborhoods, but the spanish immigrants I know are a sharp contract to the native born Americans that live next to them. These guys found a way out of a third world country and have gotten jobs in a foreign country. They may or may not speak the language, but they are still supporting themselves and usually find a way to either get their family over here or send money home.
I do know that at least some of them get some assistance. I don’t know about welfare, but I know a couple of families that get food stamps and insurance for their children provided by the gov’t.
Say what you will, I respect most of these guys, and consider many of them friends. They generally love this country and desire to become citizens.
YMMV
You’re right, you don’t need a cite. I also don’t need to give your argument any thought whatsoever. Personal anecdotes are just that, personal. They have no meaning outside of your subjective experience. So the few (hell, I’ll be generous)… so the hundred illegal immigrants you are “friends” with support themselves. Somehow, this absolves them from all legal responsibility. Well, looks like I’m on Easy Street myself, as I’ve entirely supported myself since I was 17. Kickass, liquor store, here I come! :rolleyes:
I especially love these gems from tclouie
How do you know that all the layabouts you’ve ever met are citizens? Did you approach someone loitering outside of a gas station and say, “Excuse me, Mr. Layabout, are you here legally?” Ang again, if working two jobs is all it takes to be absolved from legal responsibility in your book, I’m set again! Do I get a bonus for working two jobs AND being a full-time student, on more than one occasion?
But this takes the cake
**
Freedom, He of the One-Hundred Illegal Immigrant Friends, has already pointed out that illegal immigrants can get food stamps, and I’m sure at least one illegal has figured out a way to get welfare. So that part of your “argument” is shit. With regards to being a “sponger,” I didn’t realize the US Government required people to register before they could steal. So, essentially, we have safeguards against legal “sponging,” which can be circumvented, and no safeguards against illegal sponging. I think I’ve given your point all the “consideration” I need.
I’m sorry guys, but I don’t buy personal experience as an effective argument. If I did, I’d have to believe that all blacks are criminals, because some bozo saw two black guys hold up a liquor store. So come back when you can play for real. Until then, I’m going with the OP, because he’s got legitimate complaints, according to US Law.
I for one am tired of illegal immigrants being portrayed as the people warranting my sympathy. “Oh, they love this country. They only broke the stupid immigration laws because they want a better life for their children.” If this argument holds water in one case, I’m buying a motherfucking bad-ass security system. I don’t want some dick breaking into my house because he wants to pawn my computer to help his family. I’ll be sure to point them towards your neighborhoods, though.
Quix
it’s hard to find good info out there. My freshman year in high school we debated immigration reform (that was before Prop. 187 passed), but I can’t for the life of me find any reliable information out there that I don’t have to pay for (if I was back at the Green Library, that’d be one thing, but this is the internet). I’m finding all kinds of material from FAIR (the Federation for American Immigration Reform… an “organization of concerned citizens who share a common belief that the unforeseen mass immigration that has occurred over the last 30 years should not continue”) and the NBER (National Bureau of Economic Research, which seems at first glance to have a pretty conservative bent), but no objective statistics of any sort.
And anyway, I suspect that precious few actual statistics exist as far as finding out what percentage of illegal immigrants work hard, and how much money they make. Personally, I think it’s common knowledge that illegals come here and work tough jobs for shit pay, but I won’t extend that as an argument for quixotic78’s ridicule. I would, however, like to point out that on one side of the argument we have a few people making anecdotal arguments, and on the other side we have one guy making rhetorical arguments that attack the anecdotal evidence being cited. Note that quixotic78 does not make any anecdotal arguments himself, he just impeaches the credibility of Freedom’s and tclouie’s (which leaves him with… what to advocate?). So, quixotic78, since you’re the one saying that although this is not GD, we should still strive for some semblance of argumentative structure, you might want to watch the way you debate.
quixotic78, it just sounds like you have a personal grudge, not an argument. The fact that some people admire the work ethic of immigrants does not denigrate your own work ethic in any way. Just because you’ve had a hard life, don’t go blaming the immigrants, go blame your boss or your broker or the politicians or your parents or somebody more blame-worthy.
For that matter, do you have any cites showing undocumented immigrants tend to be criminals? Do you even have any anecdotes?
It is a fact that the undocumented are not eligible for welfare, but they can get food stamps for US-born children. If you don’t believe me, look it up. I’m sure there are some who commit fraud by posing as citizens or legal residents, but I believe you were referring to the majority.
They’re criminals by definition. Whether they’re more likely to commit crimes other than being in the country illegally, I seriously doubt.
Um, just to get back to the OP here. I’m very pro-immigration, and I believe there are certain basic human rights to which we are all entitled, regardless of our adherence to modern-day laws restricting our freedom of movement. A driver’s license is not one of them. If you choose to live in a country illegally, you’re going to have to sacrifice a few privileges. The protestors should deal with it.
And Eve, we’ve discussed this dozens of times here. You don’t need to speak the language of a country to drive in it safely. People drive all over Europe without having to learn the language of every single country they go through, and I’ve yet to hear of one accident caused thereby.
tclouie, lemme catch you here and do this right before quixotic78 says something stupid.
This is not true. Illegals are in fact eligible for many types of government assistance, including AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children), which I believe is one of the biggest sources of government assistance that we’ve got going. I could be wrong on that last count, though.
Everything else you just said is 100% true, in my opinion. ruadh’s right, too. Very much so, in fact.