Lord of the Rings Mafia

[Meeko]

@Inner_Stickler

I don’t understand why this upsets you so much.

Because it creates a class of player that is worse than Vanilla. Even among Vanilla you enter the world of “Haves” and “Have Nots”.

Vanilla needs to be treated as a uniform group. PERIOD.

@Chronos

So, what you’re saying, Meeko, is that you would have preferred to not be investigated by Nanook? Or you’d rather see a game with no Detective at all?

Uhm. I’m not sure where I said anything about not wanting to be investigated.

Detectives are fine. Any role is fine with me. *The issue I have, is that the lowliest role SHOULD NOT get privileged information while other members of the group do not get it.
**
I am perfectly fine to play games as Vanilla. I can accept that. Vanillas are needed in the game. The issue, again, is that Vanillas should not have a “level up” mechanism, of any type.

Recruitment If a player becomes a recruit for another faction, other than town [By definition of the power] they are no longer Vanilla. **My argument is that all vanillas should be treated the same. If you aren’t a Vanilla, you don’t apply to my argument. ** Because you can’t ““Forget”” that you’ve been recruited - You have no Vanillaness left and can not enter a conversation between potatoed and non-potatoed vanillas.

You can turn my argument this way : **Is a Recruiting faction different than a passable potato? ** I don’t see a meaningful difference. You can’t ““forget your potatoness”” Once potatoed, always potatoed. This DOES factor into the game.

And that’s my point. Either you treat a potato as a recruiting mechanism [In terms of balance.] or you don’t have it in the game. Recruitment affects Balance, Potatoes should too.

The parchment could not be passed on and had no power in and of itself [I assume]. It came out, looking like, and smelling like a potato. That’s what got to me. Because potatoes in their short span in Mafia serve to unbalance Vanillas to other vanillas.

The Snitch essentially made a Limited RANDOM Vanilla players [And yes, other roles] a double voter. **Did we balance Potter with a Double Voter power for town? **

The music box, made Limited RANDOM Vanilla players Masons. Thats how I understand the music box, and a frankly too broad term “Mason”.

Even if I have this wrong, the point is still there : You WILL play the game differently once you have been music-boxed. This difference in playing effectively makes you Vanilla Plus for the rest of the game.

@Natlaw

@Meeko

And it’s strictly worse than Pawn Promotion, because the chance for promotion is up to the pawn itself, not some high and mighty AND RANDOM mandate.

But it’s not random. Chronos picked someone to send a blank parchment to (it intended use might have been to send a watch result without exposing).

The snitch in Harry Potter was not random. Players got to pick who to give it to and if there ever was a tie and it’s function revealed it would be important to keep it in your teams hand.

In fact the snitch was there to avoid that a random flip of the coin would have to decide a tie (and thus possibly the game).

I really don’t follow you on this. Nothing forced Chronos’ choice one way or another. **To Chronos it’s a free choice; to the audience at home, its random. **

So, you are saying that there is strategy to be had in deciding where the Snitch goes, among Vanilla and other players? Certainly, being “in” on the conversation with the snitch is a plus.
And you don’t see a problem with this? Some Vanillas having that plus over other Vanillas who aren’t Vanilla Plus?

**
I mean, What’s a Cop or a Doc, if not Vanilla Plus? **

Again : I just feel that further separating Vanillas from other Vanillas violates a structural rule of Mafia.
*** I’ve heard it said “Acceptance does not equal approval”.** Take my statement above in tandem with this maxim. We would all like to play Mafia as something other than VT. We would be lying to ourselves otherwise. Do not read in to that post that I am ASKING to always play at VT.

[USCDiver]

@Meeko

Again : I just feel that further separating Vanillas from other Vanillas violates a structural rule of Mafia.

You’re wrong. To say a game isn’t balanced because of the use of a hot-potato or other object is insulting to the moderater that spent a considerable amount of time constructing a thoroughly enjoyable and well thought-out setup that was essentially as balanced as a game can be.

If you are going to assert that the Snitch in Harry Potter or the Parchment in LOTR somehow unbalanced the game then you really need to prove it by showing that the object influenced the outcome in a way that wasn’t anticipated in the setup. Otherwise please stop complaining; you are the only person who feels this way about the objects.

[Meeko]

@USCDiver

If you are going to assert that the Snitch in Harry Potter or the Parchment in LOTR somehow unbalanced the game then you really need to prove it by showing that the object influenced the outcome in a way that wasn’t anticipated in the setup.

**You are asking me to prove a negative. It can’t be done. **

Then again, I’ve never been potatoed.

I would wager to bet, that more traditional roles and elements of Mafia have been “gamed” by a player that saw something the Mod didn’t.

But ok: A breadcrumb could come after the potato. Then another breadcrumb.

**Before long, you have a Handshaking Crouton. **

Perhaps the Crouton faction will fight each other over the one coke bottle sent to them from the heavens.

Potatoes add WTF to the game. Speaking for myself, I would expect players to react to WTF with equal or more WTF esepcially if their WTF can play and prey on an exploit.

Peeker went up and down, left right and center over some WTF in this game. I Dare say we mislynched him because of it - and not because of anything of actual merit.

So, an innocent potato is out. A potato that actually changes the game on it’s own right? is right out.

[Doctor_Who]

@USCDiver

For some of us, the added mystery of figuring out the mechanic of mystery objects makes the game MORE fun, not LESS. As I, and others, have said, you should only play in open setup games if this kind of thing really irks you. Much better to do that than keep playing in closed setup games and getting pissed off about it EVERY SINGLE TIME. You make the game less fun for others and, even worse, less fun for yourself.

Actually I find it comical. Somewhat tiresome, like peeker’s “method” of play*… but ultimately funny.

Why not moderate Meeko? Or just sit out and get spoiled? Then you will know everything.

Ok, I’ll take one more stab at it for you Meeko: Every. Single. Player. In Mafia is working off different information. If you are vanilla, you know one thing: you are vanilla. If you are “vanilla plus”: you know you are vanilla and something else. But it’s not the disparity of information that matters. It’s working together to use our differing information to lynch scum. That’s the game. It’s like a puzzle where every single piece is in charge of putting itself where it wants to go. That’s the beauty of the game!

[Natlaw]

@Meeko

I really don’t follow you on this. Nothing forced Chronos’ choice one way or another. To Chronos it’s a free choice; to the audience at home, its random.

So, you are saying that there is strategy to be had in deciding where the Snitch goes, among Vanilla and other players? Certainly, being “in” on the conversation with the snitch is a plus.

And you don’t see a problem with this? Some Vanillas having that plus over other Vanillas who aren’t Vanilla Plus?

What exactly you don’t follow about the difference between a random event and a (hidden) choice?
Random would mean Chronos should have flipped a coin who to give the note to.
But Chronos choice was to give it without message to somone he thought was town. Not much use in the end - but not random - not decided by chance.

To the audience and the rest of the players it’s a clue. A result of a power to be cross checked with all other facts to figure out who telling the truth and who isn’t. And no, I don’t have a problem with it some people haven power or gaining or transfering powers in the game.

They were designed to be in it from the start. It’s not like the moderator thinks after a few Days - ‘let’s give some potatoes to a vanilla to humilate the ones without’.

[Natlaw]

@Meeko

**Before long, you have a Handshaking Crouton. **

[USCDiver]

@Meeko

**You are asking me to prove a negative. It can’t be done. **

No I’m not. You are making an assertion about the effect of an object on the game of Mafia. I’m asking you to prove you assertion. You say it has an effect; so prove it! Show us an instance where the object did something that influenced a game in a way that was unintended or unanticipated.

[Meeko]

@Doctor_Who

That’s the game. It’s like a puzzle where every single piece is in charge of putting itself where it wants to go. That’s the beauty of the game!

No it’s not.

You buy a jigsaw puzzle, you expect the pieces to be static.

** In fact, that is what makes a jigsaw puzzle “work”. **

[Would be interesting to sell a puzzle that didn’t work.**]

Correct?

My arguement is that the potato element changes a static piece.

The change is growth [An increase either in knowlege, or in size to further your analogy].

Once that piece has grown, it is no longer the piece it once was. It WILL not go where it was intended to go, when you bought the puzzle.

[As an aside, you can trace my argument back to where I asked why couldn’t potatoes be disclosed at game start. This would be akin making the pieces a different shape before you buy the puzzle. You don’t know the difference, the pieces, as you know them, never change. – I feel undisclosed potatoes are the vehicle for a bait and switch.]

Worse, the new size means that it forces another piece of of the puzzle out of the puzzle, because the puzzle has to compensate.

And wouldn’t you know it? The growing puzzle piece? It grew the exact appendages and mass that the inferior piece had.

Vanilla gets eaten by Vanilla plus every single time. One can do the work of two vanillas and then some, and the other gets lynched by Lynch the Lurker AT BEST.

---

Natlaw Offers this :

Random would mean Chronos should have flipped a coin who to give the note to.

**
The outcome was not predetermined. == Random. **

Again, Person A’s free choice of something, if reasoning is not shared*, is indistinguishable to Person A’s random, as far as Person B is concerned.

• Yes I know Chronos had pms at length about this, AFTER THE FACT.

** Incidentally, Puzzles “broken” out of the box have been sold. Last paragraph here. I have nothing on the “lost it” factor that these people had.

[USCDiver]

OK, I’m out… y’all feel free to continue this discussion without me. Imma unsubscribe and try to focus my attention on Evil Dead 2.

[Chronos]

Meeko, the reason I brought up detective investigations is because they do actually end up making two different classes of vanillas, in a way that really does make a significant difference to the game. This game, you and, say, Snickers were both vanilla, but you ended up being “vanilla plus” by virtue of the fact that you were confirmed by the detective. Did you have any say in that? No. But was it fair? Yes, by virtue of the fact that either of you could have ended up investigated.

[Meeko]

@USCDiver

@Meeko

**You are asking me to prove a negative. It can’t be done. **

No I’m not. You are making an assertion about the effect of an object on the game of Mafia. I’m asking you to prove you assertion. You say it has an effect; so prove it! Show us an instance where the object did something that influenced a game in a way that was unintended or unanticipated.

---

I guess it would be all to easy to say that my freak-out was an unintended and unanticipated consequence of a potato.

---

You say it has an effect; so prove it!

**Give me EVERY SINGLE CASE of a potato, ever, and I could. **

But before that, how can I do this, if I never get potatoed?

But before THAT, how can I do this, outside of an active game?

But you want me to prove it. From what, 2 and a half games? [Screamers]

I wasn’t in Screamers. And LOTR is not a potato, it was revealed in-game AS a potato so I treated it as one.

So, the one game I can prove it from [Potter] remains. Again, I was not potatoed.

**
Any one sample in a population can be an outlier. **

I am certain that the potato-breadcrumbed crouton would shake, given enough games.

I am not as positive with the second half, but I hope the reference did not woosh.

[Meeko]

@Chronos

Meeko, the reason I brought up detective investigations is because they do actually end up making two different classes of vanillas, in a way that really does make a significant difference to the game. This game, you and, say, Snickers were both vanilla, but you ended up being “vanilla plus” by virtue of the fact that you were confirmed by the detective. Did you have any say in that? No. But was it fair? Yes, by virtue of the fact that either of you could have ended up investigated.

Let’s work this backwards.

I agree that it is fair. But not for the same reasons.

A. It is fair, because a Detective used his power. A Detective [Cop] is generally assumed to be in all Mafia games. I would dare say that it even beats out the Doc in town power roles to be assumed in a game. The role of Detective is assumed or otherwise disclosed before game start. No big shock to the system when the Cop claims. It is often appealed to prematurely in many, many games.

B. It is fair, because the investigated have no control over if and when they find out that they were investigated.

Vanilla Plus knows they have a leg up on regular vanilla, and they know this the MOMENT they get potatoed. This is automatic. The fact that this is automatic, with out check, is what makes the difference between being potatoed, and being investigated.
**
The Vanilla-plusness requires the Vanilla in question to KNOW he is vanilla plus. **

Otherwise, the shadows on the cave are still just shadows. Shadow A can tell Shadow B “Hey, that vanilla chained to the wall down there thinks I’m a shadow” This is a standard investigation.

This does not shatter the vanilla’s reality.

Tell the vanilla that Shadow A and B had this conversation? This is getting potatoed.

If Vanillas truly have no powers, they should not have the power of knowing they were selected above other Vanillas,

**Not going to happen if potatoes are to survive. **

So how about :

“And to the VT in this game, those are not shadows. If you happen to see actual human flesh and bone in conjunction with a shadow, it is ok. our Mod has it under control.”

OR - if you like :

“And to the VT in this game, we will be passing out Tootsie Pops. If your wrapper happens to have an Indian and a Shooting star on it, please do not mail it in, it does NOT have any significance to it, what so ever.”
From square one, I was just asking for disclosure of potatoes. Don’t see why we can’t have it. Disclosure removes the teeth from the Crouton.
I am so glad you guys get me. [Yes, you guys do understand me on some level.] Otherwise, removing teeth from the Crouton would be the line that cinched it for you guys that I was a lost cause.

[Red_Skeezix]

The problem with exposing the potato is that it’s one more tied hand for the scum team, who already have their hands pretty well tied.

[Meeko]

NETA :

The Mod could*, if they wanted to, bold face lie about the indian on the wrapper. He could lie to VT and then tell Non-vt that the indian wrapper means a lifetime supply of tootsie pops, if it was mailed in.

Disclosure would be best. An addressing of potatoes at least. The dress that potato wears? Well apparently, I’m over stepping my bounds at mere disclosure.

• Not suggesting that any Mod lies, Ever. And I would like to think that in Mafia, and in General they are a trustworthy bunch. Even more so, as they probably have first hand experience and how bad lies are. Yeah it’s bad, but if you are forced to watch people lie, day in, day out, it would probably become like Clockwork Orange real fast.

I don’t count Gastard as lying anymore than I count Bluffing in Poker, or playing B.S. / I Doubt It as lying. Then again, Gastard games and Poker have a measure of Disclosure before game start.

[Meeko]

@Red_Skeezix

The problem with exposing the potato is that it’s one more tied hand for the scum team, who already have their hands pretty well tied.

Ok. No shit here, I don’t get this one at all.

Scum have their hands tied?!

I don’t get this. Doesn’t more knowlege mean more freedom, indeed, more power?

[storyteller0910]

@Meeko

@Chronos

Meeko, the reason I brought up detective investigations is because they do actually end up making two different classes of vanillas, in a way that really does make a significant difference to the game. This game, you and, say, Snickers were both vanilla, but you ended up being “vanilla plus” by virtue of the fact that you were confirmed by the detective. Did you have any say in that? No. But was it fair? Yes, by virtue of the fact that either of you could have ended up investigated.

Let’s work this backwards.

I agree that it is fair. But not for the same reasons.

A. It is fair, because a Detective used his power. A Detective [Cop] is generally assumed to be in all Mafia games. I would dare say that it even beats out the Doc in town power roles to be assumed in a game. The role of Detective is assumed or otherwise disclosed before game start. No big shock to the system when the Cop claims. It is often appealed to prematurely in many, many games.

B. It is fair, because the investigated have no control over if and when they find out that they were investigated.

Vanilla Plus knows they have a leg up on regular vanilla, and they know this the MOMENT they get potatoed. This is automatic. The fact that this is automatic, with out check, is what makes the difference between being potatoed, and being investigated.
**
The Vanilla-plusness requires the Vanilla in question to KNOW he is vanilla plus. **

Otherwise, the shadows on the cave are still just shadows. Shadow A can tell Shadow B “Hey, that vanilla chained to the wall down there thinks I’m a shadow” This is a standard investigation.

This does not shatter the vanilla’s reality.

Tell the vanilla that Shadow A and B had this conversation? This is getting potatoed.

If Vanillas truly have no powers, they should not have the power of knowing they were selected above other Vanillas,

**Not going to happen if potatoes are to survive. **

So how about :

“And to the VT in this game, those are not shadows. If you happen to see actual human flesh and bone in conjunction with a shadow, it is ok. our Mod has it under control.”

OR - if you like :

“And to the VT in this game, we will be passing out Tootsie Pops. If your wrapper happens to have an Indian and a Shooting star on it, please do not mail it in, it does NOT have any significance to it, what so ever.”
From square one, I was just asking for disclosure of potatoes. Don’t see why we can’t have it. Disclosure removes the teeth from the Crouton.
I am so glad you guys get me. [Yes, you guys do understand me on some level.] Otherwise, removing teeth from the Crouton would be the line that cinched it for you guys that I was a lost cause.

What you’re missing is this:

There is a fundamental gameplay reason why things aren’t disclosed beforehand. Every piece of a game is tuned such that it affects the game in a specific and balanced way. Disclosing an item makes it a different item, with a different impact on the balance and flow of the game. You have to credit the game designer with enough forethought to understand that if something is a hidden mechanic, it’s been hidden because it works better that way.

[Natlaw]

@Meeko

The outcome was not predetermined. == Random.

Again, Person A’s free choice of something, if reasoning is not shared, is indistinguishable to Person A’s random, as far as Person B is concerned.

No, ‘not predetermined’ is not the same as random and player B can use that fact to evalute it.

What town or scum motivation is there to using this potato?
How can I make this potato into a handshaking crouton to expose scum?

Again usually the only random thing in mafia is the role distribution, tie breaker and sometimes power succes chances.
And generally the latter to are not used because most people don’t like random chance to decide the outcome of the game.

But a player using an power (even if it is a hidden one) is not a random event just because you don’t know the reasoning.

Mafia simply is not chess or a jigsaw. The pieces are typically not static in this game and if the setup if closed you should not assume they are.

I’m currently thinking of a open setup mafia (maybe a mini someday):

Salad Mafia
[ul]
[li]x pieces of salad[/li][li]y handshaking croutons (masons Conspiracy style because they start out vanilla but can chose to become more. Of course they could flip a coin who to handshake with ;)) [/li][li]1 spoon (town doctor)[/li][li]1 piece of potato (town scotsman, also becomes vanilla when touched by any utensil. This for great justice against all vanillas who never got a power potato in other games)[/li][li]1 fork (survivor with nigthly kill, must kill all edible pieces except the potato to win)[/li][li]z olives (scum, I don’t like them)[/li][li]1 spoiled crouton (scum but can still handshake)[/li][li]1 knife (scum untensil may try to kill either the spoon or the fork at Night, but cutting up salad just remains salad)[/li][/ul]

What is typically called Color must be referred to as Dressing on penalty of modkill. The term Spoiled Discussion still fits though :). I might add other power roles depending on more vetegable analogies. The numbers x, y and z can be varied to taste (also known as balance).

If someone does like olives we could change the scum name of course. For example those little blocks of feta cheese, yuck .

[Meeko]

@storyteller0910

There is a fundamental gameplay reason why things aren’t disclosed beforehand. Every piece of a game is tuned such that it affects the game in a specific and balanced way. Disclosing an item makes it a different item, with a different impact on the balance and flow of the game. You have to credit the game designer with enough forethought to understand that if something is a hidden mechanic, it’s been hidden because it works better that way.

I have attempted an answer to this multiple times, trying to find the best way to answer you.

The potato needs to be a different item. Your restatement of the facts tells me nothing I didn’t already know.

Searching for different words leads me here, and I leave it on this draft for the night.

The nature of the potato demands that the item be disclosed. If the item is not disclosed, paranoia will taint the rumor of the item, paranoia will taint the conclusion of facts, paranoia will taint the decisions made with the potato. paranoia will cause players to guess everything about the potato. Someone will do something wrong with the potato and I would bet they would, more times than MAFIA would be comfortable with, hack out a use for the potato either to exploit something, guess at something, do something in spite, or out of desperation. Worse, you can’t fault them for going against the instructions on the label, none were given.

Because no one can get confirmation, everyone’s paranoia has no choice but to intermingle here, and the game WILL snafu into something that can’t be calculated out to a point scale, or any scale.

The paranoia of not disclosing a potato is infinitely worse that simply saying “Yes, this game has a potato.”

Hell, you could make the item what ever you want - you could still say “Yes, this game has a potato” even if the item is not actually a potato, or called a potato.

When I found out about the Snitch, I felt as if I Was left out on a LOT. That was what my Instinct told me. I felt like I was given the bait of being “Vanilla” and then I was given the switch of being lower tiered vanilla. The instinct was “If only”, if only I had gotten the snitch, I could have played the game 100 times better. It just felt like NOTHING that I could have done would have mattered in the least. I shouldn’t even play.*

• The snitch gave someone a double vote. this would render a VT with a single lynch vote useless. There would be no need to play or vote if your personal vote can be erased by someone elses two votes. So yeah, in spite of a “”““VANILLA””“” townie getting two votes to my single vote, I shouldn’t play. Long and the Short of it.

Did I soak that Vanilla in enough sarcasm?

You give Vanillas a certain level of trust when you given them their role, and DON’T disclose a potato. That trust is OBLITERATED when they find out on their own, outside of a Mod telling them, that potatoes exist.

Nelson Muntz would do it best. HA HA, you aren’t vanilla, you are a wannabe. HA HA.

[Meeko]

NETA :

**
And what is Mafia, but Instinct on how the game feels to you? **

What is the Mod Motivation to corrupt that “feel” ?

If you rob a Vanilla, and in fact all Players their Instinct in a Mafia game, what is left, really?

[Inner_Stickler]

Would it make you feel better if I said that there was no such thing as a plain vanilla and that all vanillas have the possibility of being vanilla+?