Okay I think I got the definition of the potato wrong so just for clarity:
[ul]A potato is an object in a mafia game which existance, effect or use is not told to all players.
[/ul]
No. The snitch gave that player to choose who would get lynched in case of a tie. A vanilla without it can still move his vote to break a tie or if he is already voting he can make an argument to influence the tie breakers decision. His vote or voice isn’t erased at all.
Also note that anyone could have gotten the snitch not just vanillas.
I don’t get this: why should vanilla’s be told there is a potato or what it does? They don’t get told who are scum. Not even who is town besides themselves. The also don’t get told how the powers work in a closed setup (for example doctor not allowed to self protect).
It’s up to everyone in a closed setup to figure out what the powers are - again that’s not just limited to vanilla’s.
As said before if you don’t like closed games don’t play them. If you do play one, don’t trust that the moderator will tell you everything you need know. It is what closed setup means. Your trust is simply misfounded.
How did you react when your parents told you Santa Claus isn’t real? Believing he existed was trust based on what they told you and you can rightfully have that trust obliterated. A potato in a game where it is known not everything is disclosed shouldn’t (though obviously you feel that way).
As scum in HP, I was terrified, well paranoid at least, of the snitch. From what information I had, it looked like a very powerful confirmation mechanism:
it started in the hands of a Town player
the transfer mechanism was changed after Night 1 to ensure it got moved around (Jimmy couldn’t pass it to Drain because she was killed, the following player was asked to submit an ordered list of recipients rather than just 1 name)
somehow one of these players received it (possibly random, possibly first alive on list, possibly first Town on list)
it had only ever been in the hands of Town
it was an unblockable action (I blocked Jimmy Nights 1 and 2 but he still managed to pass it on)
Maybe this was the intention but, if not, and if the game hadn’t ended that same Day, I’m pretty sure my actions and comments would have been strongly influenced by its existence… For example, I’d have killed the current holder instead of a confirmed Town or investigated power-role.
I’m not saying a potato is good or bad but if something as simple as a tie-breaking mechanism can change one side’s strategy and potentially change the outcome of the game, I just hope these unintended effects are somehow accounted for.
Inner: Do you have any problem with me posing this question / implied statement as :
“Meeko, you should go ahead and assume that in any game, a potato WILL exist, and it will be passed to vanillas.”
In that case :
**If Mafia matched my assumptions, my Win / Loss Record would be the best in the world. **
If Mafia matched my assumptions, Scum would never bus their own. [I don’t know how Scum can win at 100% starting force, but I know for sure how they can shoot themselves in the foot.]
If Mafia matched my assumptions, you guys would all understand me, from start. [Not saying that you would agree with me.]
If Mafia matched my assumptions, there would be no argument “here” [potatoes].
This is long. I recall previous posts. I am miffed about being skimmed in the game, but I can accept that. Don’t skim this, or any of my other after game posts. After all you guys are trying to understand me. Don’t short change yourself here, I’ve put a LOT of time into the response.
Potato : is an object in a mafia game which existance, effect or use is not told to all players, That can be passed* from player to player, with no constraint on being passed. It can be assumed that the potato has some gameplay effect**, real or imaginary, or hacked***.
This one is key part of the definition; if the potato could not be passed, I would have no problem with it. Then again, I don’t think a Vanilla with a permanent potato can rightfully be called a Vanilla [Or Vanilla Plus].
If a non-traveling potato makes a Vanilla player Town Power Role, then perhaps it would be better to the game to go ahead and make the player a Power Role proper. Making the potato passable does NOT fix the problem. It makes it worse.
[Black Lotus](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=600) is an EPIC card in Magic The Gathering. They tried to "fix" the card with [Lotus Petal](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194975). Then they realized that even at one-third the power, the card was still "broken". **Both cards were banned.** A potato is worse, given that it shows up in a social game [able to be talked about - Spin can be added to the potato. A potato is bad when tossed. Add spin to the potato? It becomes as un-predictable as the pun would suggest. Disclosure would remove the spin.
Magic is played with minimal conversation. The split of a role into a potato is worse than Lotus to Petal. [Obligatory comment that when Magic first started, the creator of the game didn’t want to disclose all of the cards in the game. – The sheer fact that the internet became popular just after the game was invented, made the creator 180 on a dime to this.] Even with the snag that the Petal had, it was still straightforward in its game text. [Which is as close to Word of Mod you can get in Magic]
** If we can accept your definition, and my first addition, I think it is safe to accept the second part. Again, Mafia is noting, if it is not a game about Instinct and gut “feel”.
*** The Hacking of the potato is what I think was NOT given consideration. It opens a door that doesn’t need to be open. A key point to the plot of Jurassic Park stresses this. Part of the fun of Mafia is the fact that the interactions create synergy. Some of the most fun of Mafia, is when something unintended happens. This is safe, because the padded walls of disclosure are always up. The potato lowers a wall. The limits will still be tested, and once they find the wall down, the newly formed Handshaking Crouton Brigade, formed from former inmates would stage Mutiny or Sabotage.
Best players push limits and rules. Gamesmanship if you want, I’d perfer understanding the rules to the punctuation.
A vanilla without it can still move his vote to break a tie or if he is already voting he can make an argument to influence the tie breakers decision. His vote or voice isn’t erased at all.
Also note that anyone could have gotten the snitch not just vanillas.
If the Vanilla feels that way about it, you would be right. If he instead learns of a potato without getting it first hand [heh] then he will no longer feel this way about it.
Yet the person currently holding the potato, would know that the potato does something. Among his many guesses, he would arrive at the fact that he flat out doesn’t need to listen to an inferior vanilla - some would vote against the inferior vanilla to make a point. [OMGUS on steroids]. It’s if a tree falls in the woods… the potato holder isn’t there to “hear” the vanilla in the least.
Yes. I never said that the potato was bound to vanillas. It is the fact that vanillas are invited to the party that is the issue. As with the detective, is with your second comment : Potatoes treat Vanillas non-uniformly. This makes some Vanillas Vanilla plus. The plus making factor is not valued properly. I would have no problem with potatoes stayng in the upper tier of players. Pass the potato around all day. If I am vanilla, and I never find out about it, I couldn’t care less about it. Tell me about it, and it shatters my reality. [[Certainly I’ve been here before on this. Allegory of the Cave and so on and so forth.]]
I don’t get this: why should vanilla’s be told there is a potato or what it does? They don’t get told who are scum. Not even who is town besides themselves. The also don’t get told how the powers work in a closed setup (for example doctor not allowed to self protect).
I have ALREADY asked for the pototo to have just mere disclosure. I asked for the explanation, but stopped short of demanding it. Tootsie Roll pops. (Same post as the allegory of the cave IIRC.)
A potato needs to be disclosed so that people don’t have to guess at what it does. The guessing gives players an unchecked energy that can not be valued on a scale, and most certainly can not be planned on before game start. You can not force someone to live (think) inside a a cardboard box. Toss in a pair of scissors (potato)? Yeah, **they might never have seen scissors before, but you just accelerated the escape. **
They may not be told who the scum are, but they are told that scum as such exists. They may not told who the townies are, but they are told that town as such exists. They may not be told what the doctor can do, but they are told that doctor as such exists. *
They may not be told what the dick can do, but they are told that dick as such exists. *
They many not be told what the potato can do, but they are told that the potato as such exists **.
Bullshit. You are arguing “Meeko, this is insane, no townie in his right mind should assume that roles exist in a game.” Repeating this part again : A Dick is the most assumed role, doctor is a short second. Many MANY players appeal to the Dick revealing and confirming players in late-mid game.They can’t make this move unless they have been “Told” by some fashion that a Dick is in the game. A similar logic would exist for the belief in Doctors.
** I went ahead and inserted potatoes here to express my point. You know what? The Fabric of Mafia is still intact. It wasn’t as destroying to the game as you all thought.
As said before if you don’t like closed games don’t play them. If you do play one, don’t trust that the moderator will tell you everything you need know. It is what closed setup means. Your trust is simply misfounded.
**
My trust in the fact that “Vanilla” is not Vanilla is misfounded. Are we both saying that ? I Think we are. **
Show me any overview of Mafia, where Vanilla is not presented first. Scum are then built on top of this FOUNDATION, Town Power Roles [which are truly optional] are built on the third floor, after Scum exist.
But, Vanilla, yeah, Vanilla has to exist, as a foundation before the game can have any chance of being played [The quality of play is open for debate]
You are telling me that the foundation is cracked, or has shifted. You are telling me to live in the house after EVERYONE has found the house to be condemned, un-fit for habitation.
If Vanilla is not Vanilla, then the game can not hold. Period.
**Santa Claus isn’t real? **
Does that mean I can make Tommy eat a bug now, with out consequence?
Ok. Wow, I only just put in an hour plus on the last post, but I will spend 2 hours here on this one, if I have to. [Which would ruin my plans for the day.]
Glad to have a scum’s perspective here.
Started with a Town. This probably has to be a given for all potatoes. Scum would play keep away with the snitch.
Understand gang, I process things by talking them out. Ok, typing them out, but this is how I piece things together. This right here is how I make connections.
2.1 That being said, the mechanics of the potato are buzzing around in my head. I came to the conclusion (on my own) that a list of candidate passers would be the best answer to the problem of having an illegal pass.
2.2 I do have TONS of ideas for Mafia (and Haggle games) I think for everyone involved it would be best if Meeko had a game Co-modded and balanced as all get out before the game starts. Meeko’s first game as Mod? If you guys even reply in the negative to the Sign-up post, That would be acceptable to me. [All is not lost for me.]
2.2.1 One of my further out there ideas could come to fruition with X-1 passable items in the game, X being number of players in the game at start. [I would give disclosure of the items != potato]
3 (and the rest) are all statements on instinct, correct? Your best guess fills in the statements. Correct? You could very well have equally been wrong. ** I dare say if the Snitch was hardwired to not be passed to scum, it would not have entered the game. ** A second detective? Yeah, not going to happen. A second detective that has the potential to investigate every single last scum on the first night? **Yeah, this would … actually prove my case entirely. **
But you know? As the potato was not disclosed, it gets to be all these things, and then some. The cat is dead, alive, and meowing up a storm all at the same time. One day schrodingers box will be checked, and the cat is gonna pounce. I hope it had it’s rabies shot.
**Instinct. The game feels this way to me, the game IS that way to me. **
Guiri : If someone had blabbed about the snitch earlier, you are saying you would have played differently? I would assume, if you got the snitch, you would likewise play differently?
Do you think that adding something into the game would serve to make the game easier, more simply?
**Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. **- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Disclosing takes away the teeth of an added item.
But yes, Disclosing the potato at start makes the potato accountable to itself. No one has to guess, or second guess – WASTE ENERGY and risk breaking the game if it is disclosed to all.
I’ll admit that people worrying about potatoes will affect some more than others, and change the strategic decisions but no reason to ban them.
You assumption that power roles should not listen to vanilla is flawed. Potatoes don’t change that.
If you mean that you got a better view of the game because it shattered your incomplete reality, we’re making progress ;).
As said sure it might affect your play but it’s also a skill of how you handle the unknown. You may want to think aside the box but your still playing inside the gamebox. How you map one to the other is your choice but don’t blame the poor potatoes for it that they don’t match up.
In a closed setup you simply shouldn’t assume. You can reason what is more likely based on known facts and experience but until the cards flip you just have to work with uncertainties.
No, then there are just no vanillas. Definitely harder to balance but that’s the challenge for the designer takes to make the game more originall and surprising.
You are going to tell me that every power role treats every vanilla role equally, and on an equal footing with them? Yeah, If you have a gun, and I don’t, I can assure you that you don’t give a fuck about me.
Allegory of the Cave. I defer to people more eloquent than I am, because it’s obvious you guys don’t even read what I say, let alone understand it.
3.Potatoes can enter the game nailed down. Players can’t. The Mod can and should fix one of these, and it’s not the burden of the player. Better games occur when the player goes far beyond what is expected. The addition of potatoes accelerates this notion, so that it is unsafe at any speed. No player should have to restrain his play due to an oversight of the Mod. Peeker notwithstanding, and we mislynched him.
If you are telling me I need be less of a player, then I Really don’t know what other options I have, esepecially at Vanilla. You want me not to play this way. Tommorow, you will want me not to play* that *way, soon, there will be no reason for me to play, and you will move on to Peeker with your hunger. Look out Ed, and Chronos, your Voting program is appetizing too.
The implication that there is no Vanilla would mean the the entire balance of the game is now in question. My issue remains that the potato is not evaluated correctly. I would bet that if you fix the potato, you fix the issue you imply here.
Perhaps if Meeko could explain his point without made-up terms (WTF is a potato anyway?) then maybe, just maybe people would be able to understand him better.
I will also state that I’m of the opinion that the amount of unknowable information in the game should be kept to a minimum. Not everything needs to be disclosed at the beginning of a game, but ideally all mechanisms should be discoverable and understandable as the game progresses. I think Mahaloth did a good job here by revealing all game mechanics relevant to a character upon death.
The snitch was discoverable by game mechanics since a tie would be broken by it. That there wasn’t a tie is what prevented players from figuring out the snitch, which is fine.
The game of mafia is a mystery. Hidden information is part of the game.
The term Vanilla Town is simply short hand for “I have no powers.” It’s a shortcut for simplicity instead of having to state “I have no powers, but who knows? that could change.” I suppose one could get all up in arms at Mahaloth for telling someone “you are Vanilla Town” when technically they aren’t, but as far as deceptions go, that one is probably the most minor one I’ve ever seen. I mean that was kind of the point of Eowyn. She was bogged down by the patriarchy at the beginning, but grew into a kick-ass chick (I have the right [del]chick[/del] strong woman character right? The blonde?). Anyway, I thought the game mechanic was well done and fit the story quite well.
As for a post-mortem, honestly, I didn’t expect Frodo to pull off destroying the ring. There were so many things he had to avoid. He needed to avoid claiming, Gollum’s night action, Scum kill, and scum investigation. That’s quite a bit to duck for 4 or 5 days. I think Town was lucky in that Frodo happened to be assigned to a cool cucumber player and not a tempest-type. These things often just work out that way. [Kind of like in Random Mafia where the Town basically got screwed by the random number generator when it assigned their detective to a high-profile player.]
Not sure where I said it recently, but it holds true here as well : I try to make a point first, and go for humor after that. If my youtube channel could catch on, I might could reverse this trend.
I don’t feel like the issue is resolved. But I do think for now it has played out. I would like to think the abrupt introduction of a passable item from someone less than Mod will not phase me as much. The sting will still be there, but if you know to expect it, the pain should in theory be reduced.
That being said, I am not going to be in any other games right now. I will be out of the country later this month. [I have told the Mods on Blockey’s game this before I signed up.]
I still seek a game where I have a good experience. This experience would be a positive one, regardless of the outcome. The game could still frustrate me, I think it always will, for everyone. I know the type of person I am, — If I could be spoiled on a game, and watch it for the duration, it would frustrate me more, that I am not playing.
