You know, sneering at the fans I can kind of see how that could be okay. However, the thing that seems to be getting people upset is more on the order of posting in great detail exactly why the show sucks to the sneerer, and express shock and confusement as to why anybody would still be dumb enough to watch such dreck.
The term for which is, IMHO, “jerk.”
I figure if I survived The X-Files, I can survive Lost.
I think it’s a little more complicated than that. Many shows have fairly obvious flaws with them (in Lost, nothing ever gets resolved. In 24, Jack can drive anywhere in 10 minutes and recover from any injury in 20 minutes. In Studio 60, everyone is super-articulate all the time). Anyone who has watched more than three episodes of the show and read at least one SDMB thread about it already KNOWS these things. Thus, if they keep watching the show, they must have decided that the enjoyment they get from the show outweighs the irritation (if any) that this flaw causes them. Thus, being the millionth person to make that complaint, particularly if you have this tone of “oh, wow, check out this amazing flaw that I have detected! It will blow your mind!” is just irritating.
Original, well-thought-out criticism, even if angrily delivered, is always appropriate. I mean, why have threads discussing something if criticism is unacceptable?
I dunno. Asshole works I guess. Sneering at the fans is rude. I’ve never ever gone into an American Idol thread even though my roommate occasionally forces me to watch. I just don’t have anything nice to say or contribute. You’ll never see me in an American Idol thread. I try not to even curser over the thread titles.
But some people have an investment in Lost. Me personally, I don’t feel like peeing in everyone’s wheaties who still love the show. But I have watched from the very beginning and season one I frequently watched each episode twice. Somewhere in season two I decided things were getting a bit silly and decided I’m not that invested in the show anymore. I still watch, but only to see what happens. I don’t spend any time trying to figure out any mysteries and I don’t spend that much time in Lost threads unless I feel the need to point out once again that Jack should really spend more time with his shirt off. And Sun and Jin are still cute as buttons. And Kate and Sawyer irritate me. And… no! I said I wouldn’t! I’m not invested anymore!
But some people are still pretty invested in the show and they’re really pissed off their favorite show is letting them down. I don’t mind these people venting with a “this show sucks!” post. It’d be nice if they went into a bit more detail. But I don’t really need them to. What goes on in the thread doesn’t really affect my enjoyment of the show.
I’ve heard people say what goes on in a thread does affect their enjoyment of the show. I don’t quite understand that. Talking about a show you love is enjoyable. Talking about a show you hate is sometimes enjoyable, especially if it’s a sort of love-hate thing.
This thread actually inspired me to start this thread yesterday. The people who still love the show and defend it sometimes call it a “character-driven” show, and if that’s not to your liking, don’t watch.
But is Lost a character-driven show? It seems lost between character and plot, and the plot is all over the place.
I participate in the threads, and watch the show. I have never, IIRC, thread shitted, even though I’m resentful of the show. I do, however, actively discourage people from watching it, if they ask me about it.
The jigsaw analogy isn’t perfect, but it’s decent.
You start out by finding a few pieces here and there that go together, and a few seperate pieces that fit together, and they show elements of what appears to be a fascinating picture. Now you’re really excited to see how it develops.
But you notice that the seperate bundles of pieces you pieced together don’t seem like they could make sense as part of the same picture. But you’re still working on it, and you feel like whoever made the puzzle has something really cool in store when you finish it.
So you keep putting it together… and as you assemble pieces together, it looks more and more like it can’t possibly be part of a cohesive picture. But you keep trying, thinking that maybe the last few pieces will somehow make the whole thing make sense, and that your time wasn’t wasted.
Eventually you complete the picture. It turns out to be a mishmashed picture, made up of a lot of seperate images just thrown together. The final picture doesn’t make any sense. The end result isn’t satisfying at all and you feel like you’ve wasted your time.
Yipee. You’ve complete the Lost Puzzle.
I was hoping that the creators would’ve had a story already constructed that they wanted to tell. Take Babylon 5 as the only example I can think of - it’s certainly not perfect, and it’s flawed, but it’s pretty unique in that it is the long term (120 hours) telling of a story that was constructed before the first frame of film was shot. As such, the show knows where it’s going, and has a beginning, middle, and end. It’s not just trying to keep creating stuff to draw people in, until people get so pissed off they stop watching and then the show ends, unsatisfyingly.
But knowing where the story was going, you could do mysteries without cheating the viewer. You could do foreshadowing and then not have to retcon it later to make sense.
For example - in the very first episode (IIRC), there’s a scene, as portrayed as a prophecy, that seems to make sense on the surface. As the series develops, years later, the scene seems to take on a different context. And then in the final episodes, 5 years later, you finally see what the scene actually was, in context. And it wasn’t at all what you thought. Yet it made sense, and didn’t cheat the viewer at all. Because the show’s creator knew where the story was going, he could do stuff like that.
Lost, on the other hand, is just the writers, with no plan, painting themselves into a corner constantly, and then having to break down the wall to get out of the room.
Well, so are the characters. Particularly Arzt.
har har…
I wonder if the new time might mean they may start getting a little more “intense”?
Wait, do they still show naked butts on TV, ala NYPD Blue? Hmm … depending on the butts in question, that may not be too bad.
I do have to wonder if the move opposite Medium isn’t a bit of a “screw you” to a former writer/producer who’s also a fan favorite. But I will probably still watch Lost and DVR Medium … as soon as I get DVR, or I’ll just wait until repeats. Lost isn’t doing repeats for the rest of the season and I’d rather watch it in order when it airs anyway.
I haven’t been here much for a couple weeks due to online connection issues and I just noticed all these “edited by poster” thingies, oooh! what’s up with that?! I guess I’ll have to go take a look at ATMB.
Plenty of things get resolved in “Lost”. Just look at any of the “Official Lost Questions” threads. Perhaps they don’t get resolved as quickly as some people may like, but that’s another issue.
Sure. But there are also big enormous questions that not only haven’t gotten resolved yet, they look like the might never get resolved, as they’re never mentioned any more. And some of these are not just things like “hey, I noticed something odd, I wonder if it will get resolved” but things that multiple episodes were spent setting up, prodding at, developing, deepening, etc. That’s the key difference.
I generally agree with this post. I still watch the show, and enjoy it, because it’s fun to see how individual mysteries will play out, but it does seem like either the writers have no coherant plan OR are drawing things out.
This recent news item gives me hope that it’s the latter: http://www.kitsapsun.com/bsun/features/article/0,2403,BSUN_19080_5305598,00.html
According to the vrious reports on this, the Lost producers are negotiating with ABC to set a definite end-point to the show after season 5. One of the reasons cited is that, with the show continuing indefinitely, the writers also have had to string out the plot indefinitely. Now, this gives me a glimmer of hope that, knowing for a fact that they have 2 and a half seasons left to flesh this out, and if there was no overarching plan from the beginning, they will be able to come up with one, and seasons 4 and 5 will be pretty good.
If this is the case, then SenorBeef’s jigsaw analogy might hold true, but rather than one big mish-mash we’d be left with a half-mishmashed, half-coherant apicture, which is better than nothing. Maybe not totally satisfying as I thought it would be watching season 1, but not a total X-files crap-out.
I think many people are missing the point of Lost. It’s a show, in essence, about people being lost. Spiritually, emotionally, and physically. The fun scientific mysteries are secondary. Lost is about the journey, not the end. I don’t care if the writers are coming up with a bunch of nonsensical shit while high. I watch it because I like watching the collective journey of the characters, the writers, and the audience. It entertains me for an hour a week.
Lost is about being in purgatory. All of the principle characters are deeply flawed and have some serious emotional baggage. They awaken on an island they cannot leave. Even if you try to sail away you’ll end up heading right back to the beach. The characters are presented with trials on the island that give them insight into their pasts and allow them to accept their individual problems. When a character has accepted their fate, they die and escape from purgatory.
I’ve pretty much decided that’s what the show is about, thematically if not literally. I don’t give a shit where the polar bears come from.
If you want to know why the show has devolved somewhat, go visit TWOP. After the fifth time you’ve seen “More shirtless Sawyer please! Anyone else get a homosexual vibe from Said and Sawyer’s torture seen? I want to see them kiss!” you’ll realize how the average viewer is directing the show. These are the same people that throw a fit if they find a logic flaw or don’t get a mystery answered.
I believe that was perfectly stated. Thank you. ::slow clap::
All of this may be 100% accurate. But if so, then the writers did a disservice to the viewers by putting in so many elements that FEEL like intriguing-mysteries-that-will-be-resolved. A fairly large percentage of viewers, at least based on SDMB threads, started out watching with the mindset of “ooh, what’s shaking those trees? what ate the pilot? wow, this is fascinating, I can’t wait to see how it’s resolved”. If you want to make a show in which nothing is ever resolved and that’s not the point, go right ahead, but to make one that FEELS like a show in which mysteries are important and relevant and will be addressed is a bit underhanded.
I aso think you’re giving the writers more credit for sophistication than they deserve.
Carnick, your entire post was brilliant. I agree 1000%.
<<standing ovation>>
For those of you who haven’t been paying attention to the clues, Lost is coincidentally also the name of the show. How could we have missed the most obvious clue of all? I guess we were too busy watching out for numbers deliberately inserted into the show and searching down websites deliberately created to trick all us viewers into watching what is, after all, just a simple story about purgatory.
Well, let’s assume that all the mystery stuff is just background, and the real journey is about the characters, and yada yada.
Is this show really strong on the merits of its characters? Maybe next episode we’ll get background about how gasp Sawyer used to be a con artist. Or maybe how Kate has a tendency to run.
Some characters had hints of being pretty interesting in the first season, but has there been any real character development since then? We’ve had rehashing of the old stuff, rarely with characters actually going anywhere.
And the characters are constantly doing unforgivably stupid things, in order to advance the island plot, which apparently doesn’t matter.
So I don’t think the somewhat condescending attitude that there’s some beautiful unique snowflake under there that we can’t see because we’re getting caught up on the stupid, irrelevant stuff has much weight.
I won’t argue that the show hasn’t devolved quite a bit from season one. I think even the most serious Lost fan will admit that the flashbacks are getting tiresome at this point. It should have ended two years ago, like most shows. But, y’know, billions of dollars. Art always has a price.
As for the “interactive Lost experience,” I think that was some network producer jerkoff’s idea for more ad revenue. I haven’t spoken to a single person who enjoyed that little gimmick, as it just felt like homework.
As I said, the mysteries are there but they’re secondary. It’s mostly a show about faith, yadda yadda. I think it’s conflicting with itself now because so many people started demanding answers. The producers shot themselves in the foot when they said that everything will have a scientific answer, but people are more willing to accept that a giant EMP cannon brought the plane out of the sky rather than fate. When you try to introduce faith and fate into a television show people will shout “OMG RELIGION!!11” and run into the corner sobbing and hissing. Unless it has superb special effects like the Matrix. That movie was deep, man.
Yes, Lost is a unique snowflake. It’s not a reality show. It’s not a show about crime solvers. It’s not sitcom. That alone makes it unique. Sure, Lost sometimes has dialogue that resembles a tortured high schooler’s short stories. But for fuck’s sake, it’s only an hour a week. It’s a TV show, not a religion. Don’t pour over the mysteries any more than you don’t want to. Don’t watch it if you don’t like it.
I’d argue they shot themselves in the foot when they started making a show where not only do the viewers not know what’s going on, and the characters don’t know what’s going on, but the WRITERS don’t know what’s going on.
I can’t speak for the writers, but I think they did have an idea what they were doing thematically. What they didn’t have was scientific answers, but they had to provide some to stretch the show out and please a larger spectrum of viewers.
That’s the genius of 24. Each season is a complete story and if the show doesn’t get renewed, no biggie.