LOTR: A Continuity Nightmare?

Cafe Society
1

While watching TTT this morning after work, I thought to myself “If Peter Jackson had three units filming at the same time in three different locations, continuity must have been a logistical nightmare.”

That said, I know about the website which features “mistakes” in continuity, having visited it right after TFOTR, but still if they don’t already offer an Oscar for “best continuity”, I think they should. That has got to be some tedious work! (And something I would enjoy!)

There’s no question, just wondering if y’all agree and if anyone has ever been involved in continuity?

Thanks

Q

2

Ah, they’re 1920’s style “Death Rays.”

3

Veeeery helpful, Ilsa.

Me too. :slight_smile:
Quasi, continuity is like oxygen. Nobody notices it as long as it’s there, but it can be a real pain in the ass if not.

So… agreed.

4

Where did he have 3 units in 3 different locations? I seem to recall that they would do one location at a time, doing scenes from all three movies at each location (if necessary). They didn’t film each movie separately.

5

Well,
1: PJ probably had live-via-satellite or some such communication all the time, and reviewed the dailies, well, daily.

2: Most of the time, they try to take care of continuity beforehand, such as Indiana Jones (eg: the Hat)

3: Hi Opal! (Don’t tell me you didn’t expect that)

But you’re right, it is monumental, though just a small piece of the colossal amount of effort a motion picture is.

6

Munch not sure if it was stated in the FOTR additional DVD or in the TTT one, but I do remember it being said. (By the narrator, I believe).

Getting ready to go to work, or I’d slip it into the player and tell you exactly which disc and where, but maybe one of our other doper friends can further elaborate (or correct me if I’m wrong).

Q

7

That would be Best Editing. Both LOTR installments were nominated, but both lost (to Blackhawk Down & Chicago).

8

First, I want to say I’m not buying The Two Towers because I already know they’re going to pull that Special Collectors’ Edition thing again.

Now, do you mean continuity errors in the book, or in the movie? I write epic fantasy, and as such I enjoy pointing out errors of all kinds in Tolkien’s work (at least as much as I enjoy reading it…).

From my own experience, continuity is extremely difficult to manage in a work of this kind. I’ve made outlines, maps, and notes indicating where various characters are at different times, only to find that someone ends up somewhere at the wrong time, and I have to rewrite a whole scene. I couldn’t manage it at all if I didn’t have dates (and sometimes times) for each scene.

It’s not just the locations of characters, either. You have to know such seemingly inconsequential details as what phase the moon is in, and where the sun is. My book sometimes flashes between very distant locations, so I have to know what time it is in Location B if it’s noon in Location A. Tolkien wouldn’t have had too much of a problem with that, since his story unfolds over 1 or 2 time zones at most – I’m not sure if he has continuity with the phases of the moon. Or with things like having flowers bloom at the wrong times.

See, it’s really tempting to do things like describe the way a full moon lights up a landscape – but you have to remember that the moon isn’t always full, even when it should be full for reasons of pathetic fallacy.

These are large-scale continuity issues, which a good author or filmmaker should be able to manage. But there’s a lot of really insignificant ones that someone will notice if you don’t get them right.

I’m going to use this example from The Two Towers:
http://www.nitpickers.com/movies/nitpicks/52000/51137.shtml
It’s about the number of arrows in Legolas’ quiver.
His quiver sometimes refills itself, and he’s always carrying the same type of arrows. The error reminds me of how annoying it is to manage arrows:

  • You have to make sure characters are carrying a realistic number of arrows.
  • You can’t fall into the standard action-movie error of having them shoot more arrows than they have. Likewise, if you feel like mentioning someone’s “last arrow”, you need to be sure it really is their last one.
  • You must remember never to use the verb “fire” in connection with arrows. Arrows are shot, but they are not guns, and are never fired. I don’t actually read enough fantasy to know an example, but I’m sure “firing” arrows is common enough.
  • Characters might sometimes be able to recover arrows, but not always – you can’t just assume they can recover them all after every battle, since they tend to break or get stuck in things.
  • When characters can refill their quivers, what type of arrows do they use? (This is more important in a movie, when you can see them.)

Actually, if I remember correctly from LOTR, I don’t think Tolkien kept track of his character’s arrows. I think Legolas had an endless supply of Elven arrows (since he’s an Elf, and does Elf things), and never had to stoop to using arrows from Gondor. I think Tolkien just made the arrows ‘unbreakable’ or something – which I’ve also resorted to =), but there are times (Moria, for example), when he wouldn’t have been able to recover them…

9

Yoda? Izzat you?!

:wink:

Q

10

I meant in the movie, Roches, but I found your post very interesting to read, and had not considered all the points you mentioned.

I went ahead and bought TTT, but I didn’t buy the EEE for TFOTR and won’t for TTT. I will wait until such time as they are all offered together. I have mixed emotions about the way those DVD’s are being offered. (As well as some other “director’s cuts”) On the one hand, yeah I want that little bit of extra footage, but on the other why didn’t they include it in the first offering? Surely the movie will make many times its expenses with all the other merchandising involved? :rolleyes:

Q

11

Well, you don’t see them going to the bathroom either…

12

Quasimodem - We’ve had this discussion in other threads. If they only offered the EE, you’d get people complaining that it wasn’t what they were expecting, wasn’ty what they saw in the theatre. Many people don’t care for the extra 12 hours of commentary, and would prefer not to have to pay for them. IMHO, Jackson did it the right way. He’s very open about the EE, doesn’t try to get people to buy the first one unaware that another is coming out.

StG

13

Ahh, I love picking the low hanging fruit before someone else gets there.

There is at least one point in The Two Towers book during the siege at Helm’s Deep where Legolas mentions that he has had to grope for used arrows because all his are spent (don’t have the books in front of me right now). Also, after the Fellowship is ambushed at Amon Hen it mentions Legolas creeping through the woods with his long knife drawn because all of his arrows were gone. Then at the beginning of TTT (book, again) it describes him searching around for Orc arrows that he could use before they set off after the Uruk-Hai. Oh, and in Fellowship after they are attacked by wolves at night he is able to recover almost all of his arrows.

With reference to characters showing up where it would be impossible for them to be because of time constraints, that is one of my beefs with the Elf host showing up at Helm’s Deep in the Two Towers movie…they must have left Lorien the day after the Fellowship did, and damn near sprinted the whole way.

My impression also is that Tolkien was pretty careful with phases of the moon and such, but someone who has studied it will have to weigh in with more.

14

When that happens, a wizard did it.

I can’t believe some dorks sit there counting arrows just so they can pat themselves on the back over how anal they are.

I mean there’s stuff you can’t miss like a car that’s riddled with bullets one second and then perfectly fine the next. Then there’s stuff you have to suspend you disbelief for like Jack Bauer not spending entire episodes of 24 stuck in his car driving around LA or episodes ending with someone taking a bathroom brake (beep…BEEP…beep…BEEP…FLUSH). But to actually go and count things like buttons on a guys shirt or shell casings is a little much.

15

I don’t get into that stuff myself, but I’ve been known to nitpick. As long as he enjoys the film, who really cares?

I mean, granted, I don’t want to get into protracted conversations with these dorks, :wink: :wink: :wink: but still.

16

Thank you for your wonderful contribution to the thread. Please go to a politics thread and tell people to stop caring about politics, or to a sports thread with a rant about how sports suck, or something of the like, next.

17

Tolkien created at least one (Hobbitish) calendar and I think an Elven calendar as well. (I don’t have the books in front of me right now.) He also created internally consistent languages, alphabets, mythologies and histories. Even pronunciation guides. If you read the appendices to The Return of the King, you can even find him explaining how and why he “translated” Westron into English. (An example: in Westron, Sam’s name meant something like “half-wise” or “foolishly wise”. So, Tolkien “translated” it into the Middle English samwis - that is, “some-wise”. Likewise, Hamfast Gamgee, Sam’s father, had a given name that meant “stay-at-home”, which Tolkien “translated” into hamfaest - “home-fast”. Both samwis and hamfaest were real Middle English words.)

All of which is to say, he very probably did get the phases of the moon and the blooming of the flowers right. I can’t say for certain that he did, but I would be surprised if he didn’t. Hell, that’s what LoTR is known for - an amazingly detailed and consistent “subcreation” (to use Tolkien’s own word). It certainly isn’t known for the writing.

18

If, in these threads, you found someone saying
“hey guyz arnold cannot bbe a good governmatron because he wears a green suit”

as opposed to

“Arnold Schwarzenegger is grossly unqualified for any political position due to his time spent as an actor, didn’t Reagan teach us anything?”

or something like “Tiger Woods sux because he wore a hat on the ninth hole”

instead of

“Woods’ form appears to have substantially decreased since his trailblazing effort at the 99 Masters, oh yes smokes pipe.”

Then maybe you, too, would say “Jesus of Christ get off your high horse and quit whining about irrelevant things.”

19

Yes. Exactly. Moviemaking is, basically, editing. It’s where you control pacing, acting (yes, acting), continuity, emotional intensity, and everything else.

Also, Jackson’s units would be working from previsualization resources: storyboards, animatics, and other means by which Jackson establishes (sitting in the office in a meeting) what will be shot by everybody when they go out into the field. That’s another way continuity can be managed.

20

They have never “pulled” anything. They announced well before FOTR even came out theatrically that they would release two versions of the dvd, one for people who want the one in theaters and one for those who want a fuller version.

Only the ignorant missed out.