The movies have completely muddied these discussions.
Indeed, Sir.
It fellates with great alacrity.
I feel as though as I am in a theological discussion with folks who have not read the Bible, but watched The Ten Commandments.
:dubious:
Nothing wrong with parallel discussions. In the movies, X, in the books, Y.
I heard a clerihew once:
"Cecil B de Mille
"Rather against his will
"Was persuaded to leave Moses
“Out of The War of the Roses”
Whereas of course nothing was able to persuade Jackson to leave Legolas out of The Hobbit.
Well, in the spirit of open-mindedly reconsidering one’s position that truly characterizes the SDMB, I’ll put aside what I’ve seen in the movies – Sauron With The Ring being the kind of threat that an unathletic guy with a busted sword could smack into next [del]week[/del] [del]year[/del] millennium, say – to consider what’s been said in this thread in a new light.
Right there in the OP, it’s stated that “The Ring needs to be destroyed. If it’s just taken out of the game (e.g. by sinking it in the ocean), Sauron still conquers Middle-Earth.” Okay. Fine. Leaving aside how feeble Sauron With The Ring is, I’ll grant for the sake of argument that Sauron Without The Ring can’t be beaten by all the forces of good put together if the ring is just, y’know, out there.
So if Gollum had kept it out of sight like he’d wanted, or if Tom Bombadil had kept unimpressedly doing parlor tricks with it, or if the ring had otherwise just stayed away, then Sauron would’ve won. So why did he make it so it tries to come back to him? Shouldn’t his top priority have been for it to get lost?
It’s like kryptonite: as long as it’s in his hands, he’s in danger of getting his ass beat like a red-headed stepchild at K-Mart – and as long as it’s in nobody’s hands, he’s sure to conquer the world. So why the heck would he design it to come back to him?
(Note that I’m not saying he’d be in danger of getting his ass beat by one guy. I’m pointedly not talking about the movie; I’m talking about the book, where two guys tackle him to the ground, at which point a third guy could cheerfully dance around while singing house on fire, house on fire and pissing on him.)
The problem, though, is that the movies changed small but crucial things in such a way that trying to discuss both at once leads to confusion. Hell, it starts with the very first section, the adaptation of the Last Battle of the Last Alliance. Having Isildur be the way to defeat Sauron (by a lucky strike) rather than Elendil and Gil-galad changes the tenor of the scene.
ETA: I’m not saying that to put down the movies. As I’ve written before, it’s only the third one I can’t stand, and even that one has five great scenes. Fellowship is wonderful with minor flaws; Towers has more flaws but still great.
Sure you are.
:rolleyes:
Why the eye-roll? The premise of this thread is that, without the ring, Sauron can’t be beaten (not in the book, and, one supposes, not in the movie); I take it you don’t disagree. And it’s even clearer that Sauron With The Ring can be beaten (as he was in the movie, and as he was in the book); I take it you don’t disagree with that either.
In that context, why doubt the sincerity of my question?
Putting the movie aside, the book supposedly spells out that Sauron can be (and was) beaten if he has the ring, and can’t be beaten if it ain’t in play; sure, the movie also has it that Sauron can be (and was) beaten if he has the ring, and supposedly can’t lose if it ain’t in play – but I took pains in that post to specify whether I was talking about movie-Sauron or book-Sauron when asking why he’d ever want the thing back.
Sauron could be beaten, in the past, even if he held the Ring. No longer. It took a huge army, one that no longer can be raised, a number of the greatest heroes that ever lived to do it- and a artifact sword.
Without the army the heroes cant even get to Sauron, they’d be shot down with arrows or hewn.
Without the heroes, the mere mortals in the Army couldnt stand before Sauron- his will and fear factor was that high.
It’s possible that no lesser weapon would have had any effect on Sauron at all. Even so, even Narsil was broken.
So, whupping Sauron is harder than you make out.
Now-
Without the Ring- it’s likely he could win. But not quickly and not inevitable. Sauron knows what Gondor has but he doesnt know what the Elves and the Wise have (the Three can shield/hide much from Sauron). Sure, the leader of the White Council (Saruman) has turned. But the White Council was able to drive him out before- when his army was small and busy elsewhere.
So he has doubts. *Doubt ever gnaws him. *
But the forces of the West and the remaining White council know what they have- and they now know what they have cant beat Sauron.
By “a number” you mean “two”, right?
So just to be clear, it’s not merely that guys back then could beat Sauron and their descendants can’t; it’s that two guys back then could beat Sauron while he had the ring, and their descendants can’t even if he lacks the ring? That we can imagine guys who are (a) too weak to repeat the two-man beatdown were Sauron at his old power level, but (b) not too weak to beat Sauron at his diminished power level – and the guys in LOTR are yet another other order of magnitude more pathetic than that?
Nope. There was Gil-galad, Elendil, Isildur, Elrond & Cirdan, the five greatest heroes of that time. And they only had a chance to beat him as their army had defeated his- and only Narsil could cleave Saurons flesh. Not to mention Gil-galad & Elendil died during that fight. Note that Elrond and Cirdan had two of the Three. So it took the five greatest heroes of the time, and three of the greatest artifacts on Middle-earth.
Not to mention a huge fucking army of elves & men- plus some dwarves, etc.
He didn’t think that way. He was power-mad, and this was part of his power. He wanted it back.
Exactly the opposite: with the ring in his hands, he’d have been much more powerful than he was without it. He would have lain the three Elven rings bare. Lorien would have fallen to the first mass assault from the east.
Also, with the ring, he would have corrupted Saruman and Denethor worse. And Aragorn probably would not have been able to avoid corruption if he’d used the Palantir.
That the free peoples might seek to destroy the ring never occurred to Sauron, and never would have. He couldn’t conceive of anyone doing that.
What he most feared was someone great and powerful – Elrond or Galadriel, most likely – taking the ring and using it to rule.
So…yes, he’d have been grudgingly content if the ring remained buried under the Misty Mountains, but that wasn’t what he really wanted.
In many great epics, evil is powerful, but it has flaws, flaws that become fatal later on when the heroes exploit them
Sauron could have ruled Middle Earth without the ring, but it would have probably taken longer. And even then his personal power would not be as great as it would be with the ring. He wanted that power and he wanted Middle Earth now. He was impatient and greedy
He wanted to destroy Gondor, Rohan, and the elven and dwarven strongholds faster, better, more efficiently. With the ring he had this power, without it his armies might be beaten and he would have to go hide for another thousand years. He thought this, so he wanted the ring. If he knew that Men could no longer rally to their defense and beat him, maybe he would be content to let the ring lie missing. Maybe. But he wasn’t willing to wait any longer it seemed
How do you figure?
Gil-galad and Elendil, sure: they tackled Sauron to the ground, at which point he was helplessly lying there unable to defend himself – but it’s not like they only managed it because Elrond had stabbed him in the foot and he was off-balance from dodging Cirdan’s spear, or something, right? And while it was Isildur who then approached with Narsil in hand, Sauron couldn’t lift a finger to protect himself at that point, such that a regular mook with no sword at all could’ve stripped him of the ring right then?
Well, all we know is that those five were the only ones in the entire Host who could face Sauron directly. Gil-galad and Elendil died fighting him, Narsil broke during that but Isildur cut Saurons finger and the Ring off. However, Cirdan and Elrond played some part in that, exactly what we dont know.
However, no normal mortal could have approached Sauron, no mortal blade could have pierced his skin. Of that great host of Númenóreans (and only Aragon remains of that pure blood) and Elves only five of the greatest could face Sauron, the rest broke.
Where the hell did you guys read about this?
I had the same thought. It’s sure not the book, so I’ll guess some Chris-Claremont-written fanfiction.
Exactly how it went down, I don’t remember reading anywhere, but those five names are mentioned in “The Council of Elrond” when Elrond is recollecting how Isildur took the Ring and refused to destroy it: “…few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal combat; and by Gil-galad only Cirdan stood, and I.” So yes, that’s the big five among Elves and Men, given that Galadriel wasn’t personally kicking ass in that battle, and they had two of the Three Rings and Aiglos and Narsil, the Spear of Gil-Galad and the Sword of Elendil respectively, on the slopes of Mount Doom.
You have to piece it together. We know that Gil-galad and Elendil died fighting Sauron, Narsil broke during that but Isildur cut Saurons finger and the Ring off, right? And if you read about Elrond and Cirdan in the appendixes, Silmarion etc, it will tell you they are they only other two that were there, the only others two that could stand before Sauron.
It’s true that in some versions Sauron was taken down by Gil-galad and Elendil , who perished doing so, then Isildur cut Saurons finger and the Ring.
*During the final challenge on the slopes of Mount Doom, Sauron was slain by Gil-galad and Elendil, who themselves perished in the act.[35] When Elendil fell, his sword Narsil broke beneath him. Isildur, Elendil’s surviving son, took up the hilt-shard of Narsil and cut the One Ring from Sauron’s hand. “Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places.”[36]
Elrond and Círdan, Gil-galad’s lieutenants, urged Isildur to destroy the Ring by casting it into Mount Doom, but he refused and kept it for his own: “This I will have as weregild for my father’s death, and my brother’s. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?”[37]*
Círdan’s exact status during that time is unknown, but it seems certain he served as lieutenant of Gil-galad, the last High King of the Ñoldor of Middle-earth. Círdan is mentioned as receiving the ships of the Númenóreans as they returned to the north of Middle-earth, and also as being one of the only two elves (along with Elrond) who stood beside Gil-Galad during his last battle with Sauron.