LOTR thread: what if the House of Stewards had refused to yield to Aragorn?

[mbh]

The three that I admire the most,
Elf-Queen, hobbit, and homely host,
They caught the last boat from the coast,
The day the music died.
My take on it is that, after the victory at Pellenor, the people of Gondor were pretty impressed with the ranger from the North. Once he revealed his name and lineage, he would have had a lot of popular support.

Remember that Prince Imrahil acknowledged Aragorn’s claim to the throne the minute he heard his name. He knew exactly who Aragorn was, and what was his pedigree.

If Faramir survived, I think he would have checked the records, said “Yup, he’s the rightful king”, and supported him, even against his father. Borimir might have been a bit more stubborn, but after Pellinor, I think he would have admitted that Aragorn was worthy.

Denethor might have made a scene about serving the glorious House of Anarion, and sneered at the House of Isildur, but in the end I thing Aragorn would have won. Denethor might have spent the rest of his life in “retirement” in some remote province. Or he might have died of apoplexy, the moment he realized that he had lost.

[Grey]

Well Aragon was related through both the houses of Isildur and Anarion so that would be one less problem.

[Oy]

@Chronos

And the fact that Legolas longest endured the gaze of Galadriel makes him the worst candidate for bearing the Ring, not the best. Looking into the gaze of Galadriel is like staring into the Sun. It only takes a single glance for good Hobbit sensibility to kick in and turn away, but the proud, like Legolas, will endure it longer. But pride is a very powerful tool for the Ring to exploit.

Boy, that sure is not the impression I got. I never had a sense of particular pride from Legolas except in his joking competition with Gimli and a generalized sense of pride in the elves as a people. I always felt that he and Aragorn were able to withstand Galadriel’s gaze because they had the most self-understanding of the group, and thus were able to stand the self-revelation that Galadriel forced them into. They knew what they were doing and why.

I believe that Thranduil was Sindarin; in any case, the family is well aware of the history of the elves wrt Sauron.

I wasn’t singling out Legolas from other elves and saying that he was especially awesome. My impression is that elves are over-all superior to other folk; keener senses, having more lore, older and wiser than men or dwarves. If I were a man and had to choose a single warrior to be at my side, I would take an elf over a dwarf, even though the dwarf might be a tad physically stronger. And I would trust an elf to be less readily corrupted than a dwarf or a man, because the elves in general are not as desirous of power for themselves, although of course there are a number of historical exceptions. But at this time in history, the elves saeem to me to be beyond ambition; they’re leaving, and there’s just not much they seem to want.

[DSYoungEsq]

@toadspittle

In the book, I’m fairly positive he handles it once. He doesn’t QUITE treat it like plutonium.

Name the place where he handles it. I believe I’ve established all places in The Fellowship of the Ring where he is in close proximity to it. Remember: Gandalf doesn’t get to spend much time around Frodo in the books.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

@DSYoungEsq

Name the place where he handles it. I believe I’ve established all places in The Fellowship of the Ring where he is in close proximity to it. Remember: Gandalf doesn’t get to spend much time around Frodo in the books.

From FOTR, Chapter 2, “Shadow of the Past”

‘It has everything to do with it,’ said Gandalf. ‘You do not know the real peril yet; but you shall. I was not sure of it myself when I was last here; but the time has come to speak. Give me the ring for a moment.’

 Frodo took it from his breeches-pocket, where it was clasped to a chain that hung from his belt. He unfastened it and handed it slowly to the wizard. It felt suddenly very heavy, as if either it or Frodo himself was in some way reluctant for Gandalf to touch it.

 Gandalf held it up. It looked to be made of pure and solid gold. 'Can you see any markings on it?' he asked.

‘No,’ said Frodo. ‘There are none. It is quite plain, and it never shows a scratch or sign of wear.’

 'Well then, look!' To Frodo's astonishment and distress the wizard threw it suddenly into the middle of a glowing corner of the fire. Frodo gave a cry and groped for the tongs; but Gandalf held him back.

 'Wait!' he said in a commanding voice, giving Frodo a quick look from under his bristling brows.

 No apparent change came over the ring. After a while Gandalf got up, closed the shutters outside the window, and drew the curtains. The room became dark and silent, though the clack of Sam's shears, now nearer to the windows, could still be heard faintly from the garden. For a moment the wizard stood looking at the fire; then he stooped and removed the ring to the hearth with the tongs, and at once picked it up. Frodo gasped.

 It is quite cool,' said Gandalf. 'Take it!' Frodo received it on his shrinking palm: it seemed to have become thicker and heavier than ever.

 'Hold it up!' said Gandalf. 'And look closely!'

Pretty unambiguous to me. Gandalf held the ring twice.

YMMV

[Cerowyn]

Well, Qadgop beat me to the reference, but I was going to say that it was only the movie Gandalf that refused to handle the ring at all.

[DSYoungEsq]

Ooops! My ancient brain cells are obviously aging faster than they need. :eek:

I thought Frodo tossed it in the fire and Gandalf had Frodo pick it up. My bad.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@DSYoungEsq

Ooops! My ancient brain cells are obviously aging faster than they need. :eek:

I thought Frodo tossed it in the fire and Gandalf had Frodo pick it up. My bad.

I think it was that way in the movie, which does show Mithrandir as reluctant to even touch it.

I don’t think that was an unreasonable directorial choice, by the way.

[kaylasdad99]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

Also, the story Frodo tells him is going to be different; it may not involve the breaking of the Fellowship, for instance. I don’t think the Fellowship breaks the same way if Faramir is the 2nd Man rather than Boromir. Part of the reason Frodo leaves is that he suspects Boromir’s desire for the Ring, and he is worried about this from at least the time he sees Galadriel’s mirror. If Faramir is there, I think the Fellowship breaks basically the way Aragorn suggested: he, Frodo, Sam, & Gimli head for Mordor while Faramir takes the rest to Gondor.

Of course, Rohan probably falls in this scenario, so I’m not sure Eru allows it.

I’m not necessarily buying that the manner of the breaking of the Fellowship changes without the attempt on the Ring by the man of Gondor. Frodo pretty much decided to not ask his comrades to risk the trip into Mordor anyway, and as he knew that Aragorn would object to such a decision (as you point out), he was likely to try a stealthy departure. The ambush by the Uruk-Hai would have happened anyway, and Faramir might well have fallen in defense of Merry and Pippin. Sam will wind up in Frodo’s boat, too, just the way it happened.

If it’s Boromir interviewing Frodo in Ithilien, it’s true that Sam probably doesn’t spill the beans about the Ring, but it’s also less than likely that Boromir will let them proceed along on their way. They’re going to Minas Tirith. Just like PJ showed it (except with less motivation to turn them loose when the orcs from Minas Morgul come a-calling).

And he probably has Sméagol shot without consulting Frodo.

[Crowbar_of_Irony_3]

The other question is - how popular is Denethor to its people. Considering the state of Minas Tirth (empty streets, abandoned house), I guess the capital isn’t thriving well, but unless we dig out some real historical records we have no idea how well Denethor is as a ruler.

The other issue is that what Denethor said is quite true. All these years the House of the Steward has been defying Mordor. In a sense Aragorn did quite ‘walk in’ just to take the throne, but fortunately he just didn’t (he liberated slaves from the Corsairs and fought a heck of the battle on the field of Pelenor). The other perceptive is that Aragorn had been protecting the Shire and fighting Angmar; then Denethor may said, “Then your claim is Arnor, not Gondor” (was there ever a clause for the two kingdoms to become one again?)

Another thing about his earlier stint at Gondor. Would anyone remember him (how long was that?)

Second factor - well, the new king of Rohan backed Aragorn, the lord of Dol Amorth(sp?) backed him and we have Gandalf the White, who seems to have capture the imagination of the fighting (and common) people. So I guess Aragorn’s PR is rather good, and worse to the worse, let’s just ship Galadriel and Elrond to the victory banquet and see what happens.

[Oy]

Aragorn served with Thengel of Rohan (father of Theoden) and Ecthelion Steward of Gondor (father of Denethor) from 2957 to 2980, at which time he went to Lothlorien. Denethor was born in 2930 and Aragorn in 2931, so they were contemporaries and pretty young at the time. Ecthelion, and in fact the people of Gondor, loved Thorongil, who functioned as a captain of Gondor.

@The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen

There was dismay in the City at the departure of Thorongil, and to all men it seemed a great loss, unless it were to Denethor, the son of Ecthelion, a man now ripe for the Stewardship, to which after four years he succeeded on the death of his father.

Denethor II [that’s our Denethor] was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as alike to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father. At the time many thought that Thorongil had departed before his rival became his master; though indeed Thorongil had never himself vied with Denethor, nor held himself higher than the servant of the father.

In short, the real Denethor (as opposed to the PJ version) was as like to Aragorn as two peas in a pod, except that Denethor showed his age, and also that Aragorn had that certain something that allowed him to win friends and influence people (I’m guessing a lack of overt pride). But Aragron did not in any way base his claim on his earlier time in Mina Tirith as Thorongil. Perhaps if Denethor had opposed his claim, he might have mentioned it, but between the people of renown (Dol Amroth, Gandalf, the Elves) who already believed in Aragorn, his carrying Anduril (The Blade that was Broken), and his healing power*, I think Aragorn would have been accepted as king without reference to that time. But as I said earlier in the thread, I think Denethor’s pride would have led him to abdicate once he saw which way the wind was blowing. After all, he was the one who insisted that they were Stewards, not Kings to Boromir.
*Ioreth, an old woman, in the Houses of Healing (italics Tolkien’s):
For it is said in old lore: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer. And so the rightful king could ever be known.

[eleanorigby]

LACK of overt pride? Book Aragorn?!? You must be joking. That character is almost nothing but overt pride. I lost count of the number of times he stood, arms akimbo and cried out his many titles. Aragorn, your name is legend. :rolleyes:

I could never believe Book Aragorn as Strider–the man seemed the least likely to want to hide his true nature/status. Ok, so he wanted to “earn” Arwen. Whatever. I do remember Aragorn wanting to enter Gondor triumphant so he stays in disguise to go to the House of Healing. That was appropriate. But the rest of the time, I just remember him going on and on about his history and his genealogy.
Aragorn makes more sense if he’s a bit conflicted. That doesn’t mean I was thrilled with the screen adaptation (by the writers–Viggo/Aragorn was great IMO), but otherwise, he’s pretty cookie-cutter.
… countdown to those LOTR fans who will come in and prove me wrong. Gentlemen, start your engines!

[Oy]

That wasn’t the way I saw it, and I’m quite certain that it wasn’t what Tolkien intended.

[well_he_s_back]

eleanorigby - I like your summary of book v. movie Aragorn. Pretty spot on.

There is a wonderful unabridged audiobook version of LOTR. (I listened to most of it after eye surgery when ordered not to read anything.) Your description of book Aragorn is esp apt when you listen to him speaking about his wonderful self in the recorded version.

My take is that Tolkien’s tendency to copy medieval style writing overcame him when describing the future king. I like the passages when JRRT resumes a slightly more modern novelistic or naturalistic writing style better.

[Crowbar_of_Irony_3]

@well_he_s_back

eleanorigby - I like your summary of book v. movie Aragorn. Pretty spot on.

There is a wonderful unabridged audiobook version of LOTR. (I listened to most of it after eye surgery when ordered not to read anything.) Your description of book Aragorn is esp apt when you listen to him speaking about his wonderful self in the recorded version.

And about that sword of his.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

Interesting question, Skald.

You posit either that Denethor survives the war without going visibly mad, or that Boromoir simply survives. I don’t think that either of them would have been able to resist Aragorn’s rightful claim to the throne given, in no particular order:

• his bloodline
• memories of his many good deeds as Thorongil
• his healing powers, which showed him to be the rightful king
• his wielding of Anduril
• his having saved Minas Tirith with the Army of the Dead, which no one but Isildur’s Heir could have summoned
• his backing by Gandalf, the Elves, the new King Eomer of Rohan, and Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth
• his having been leader of the Fellowship which destroyed the Ring and utterly defeated Sauron

If either Denethor or Boromir, or both, had survived the war and still opposed Aragorn, any civil war would be brief or even abortive, I think, given the great PR and overwhelming support Aragorn would have had, not to mention the war-weariness of most Gondorians. Remember, too, that Boromir had already acknowledged Aragorn’s royalty at Amon Hen, and that didn’t just seem to be because he was on the brink of death.

I like Oy!'s idea that one or the other could acquiesce to a King Elessar but then become leader of the “loyal opposition” (assuming that such an advanced parliamentary concept even existed at the time, which it didn’t, but what the hell, LOTR is plenty ahistorical) on the Council of Gondor.

If so, I hardly think Elessar would want to keep even a genteel and nonviolent foe on as Steward. The House of Hurin would probably be out of its longtime gig. Any possible successors? Some wise Ranger companion of Aragorn’s, perhaps, or an “insider” Minas Tirith nobleman who was known to not be too chummy with Denethor?

Very interesting…

[Oy]

@Elendil_s_Heir

I like Oy!'s idea that one or the other could acquiesce to a King Elessar but then become leader of the “loyal opposition” (assuming that such an advanced parliamentary concept even existed at the time, which it didn’t, but what the hell, LOTR is plenty ahistorical) on the Council of Gondor.

I don’t think Boromir would have had the sophistication, nor, for that matter the inclination to be a loyal opposition; he was a For You or Against You kind of guy, and by the end of the War of the Rings, he would have been For Aragorn.

Denethor, on the other hand, was an entirely different kettle of fish. Way more subtle and wise than Boromir, plus some fifty years or so of Stewardship under his belt, and to top it off, he suffered from Smartest Guy in the Room Syndrome, where knowing more than those around him led him to believe he knew more than anyone. He would not be disloyal, or even overtly opposed to Aragorn, I think. But the moment Aragorn made a decision of which Denethor didn’t approve (possibly for as little a reason as Aragorn not consulting with him first), Denethor would be there, whispering that maybe this heir of Isildur wasn’t so hot after all, that maybe they’d been better off when he was in charge. Not to foment revolution, but just for the satisfaction of believing that he was really better than Aragorn. This would be particularly true once he realized that Aragorn was Thorongil, which I’m sure he would have once he met him. I doubt Aragorn would ever mention it; his claim is based on his ancestry, not his earlier time in Gondor.

Yeah, Aragorn is well-aware of his ancestry. It’s been dumped on him like an anvil, a huge burden of responsibility and self-doubt, not to mention acute danger. He wasn’t brought up in Rivendell because it was a lovely resort. It’s because he had to be protected; his father was killed when Aragorn was two. And he’s grown up in a culture of Elves, who on the whole scorn men more than they respect them. His view of Isildur was informed by Elrond, whose opinion of the man was none too high. And one of the weaknesses of the Elves is that they don’t really understand the possibility of change, of personal growth.

[eleanorigby]

@Oy

I don’t think Boromir would have had the sophistication, nor, for that matter the inclination to be a loyal opposition; he was a For You or Against You kind of guy, and by the end of the War of the Rings, he would have been For Aragorn.

I agree.

Denethor, on the other hand, was an entirely different kettle of fish. Way more subtle and wise than Boromir, plus some fifty years or so of Stewardship under his belt, and to top it off, he suffered from Smartest Guy in the Room Syndrome, where knowing more than those around him led him to believe he knew more than anyone. He would not be disloyal, or even overtly opposed to Aragorn, I think. But the moment Aragorn made a decision of which Denethor didn’t approve (possibly for as little a reason as Aragorn not consulting with him first), Denethor would be there, whispering that maybe this heir of Isildur wasn’t so hot after all, that maybe they’d been better off when he was in charge. Not to foment revolution, but just for the satisfaction of believing that he was really better than Aragorn. This would be particularly true once he realized that Aragorn was Thorongil, which I’m sure he would have once he met him. I doubt Aragorn would ever mention it; his claim is based on his ancestry, not his earlier time in Gondor.

Yup–part of my take on Denethor exactly–more Iago than Othello, if you follow me. And yet, this guy was supposedly great. Hmmmph. Not so much.

Yeah, Aragorn is well-aware of his ancestry. It’s been dumped on him like an anvil, a huge burden of responsibility and self-doubt, not to mention acute danger. He wasn’t brought up in Rivendell because it was a lovely resort. It’s because he had to be protected; his father was killed when Aragorn was two. And he’s grown up in a culture of Elves, who on the whole scorn men more than they respect them. His view of Isildur was informed by Elrond, whose opinion of the man was none too high. And one of the weaknesses of the Elves is that they don’t really understand the possibility of change, of personal growth.

Which supports the film version of him more than the book one, but I can also see how he could become equal parts grandiose self valuation and arrogance marbled with extreme self doubt and resentment. IOW, he crows a lot, but can he deliver? (of course he does, in the end–I would just prefer a bit less “I’m so damned great and my ancestors were faboo, baby!”)

Don’t get me started on Elrond “I have control issues” Elven King Guy.

[Oy]

Sorry, I’m just not seeing the arrogance in book Aragorn. Maybe you can point me.

Denethor, now, Denethor’s middle name is Arrogance. I think there may be a lot of resentment in there too, which come to think of it, may account for why he preferred Boromir to Faramir, Faramir being so much like the Thorongil who stole his thunder as a young man. But maybe I’m just projecting into him.

[eleanorigby]

@Oy

Sorry, I’m just not seeing the arrogance in book Aragorn. Maybe you can point me.

Denethor, now, Denethor’s middle name is Arrogance. I think there may be a lot of resentment in there too, which come to think of it, may account for why he preferred Boromir to Faramir, Faramir being so much like the Thorongil who stole his thunder as a young man. But maybe I’m just projecting into him.

Don’t make me read it again… I rerereread LOTR last year and found I was very impatient with the whole thing. Don’t get me wrong–I admire what Tolkien did and all, but I have no desire to wade through his prose to find examples. I’m not the only one to have found it this way. And who knows? Maybe I would read it again and not see it this time–but I’m not about to do that. Too many other things to read and do at present.

That’s one of the beauties of fiction: not only can different people perceive different things about a piece, but the same person can pick up different things with each reread.

I agree re Denethor, though–arrogant and shifty and power hungry. Not a stable combo.