Yet Another Tolkein Thread: Denethor

Cafe Society
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At the risk of turning Cafe Society into Tolkein Talk…

What do you think of Denethor, son of Ecthelion, Steward of Gondor? I always liked him, at least as a character, and think he’s really quite interesting. I disliked how Peter Jackson presented him, because it seemed to cut out all the subtlety of his character (and while Jackson is good for many things, he’s not a subtle filmmaker.)

I’ve read the books several times, but it’s still been years, and I recall Denethor being really quite cool. Even toward the end, while his mind was buckling under the pressure, he remained strong of will and extremely intelligent. I recall being annoyed at Gandalf (the only time, in fact) for not helping Denethor’s crushing grief, and largely ignoring the desperate plight of the man.

Because from Denethor’s perspective, Gandalf is a huge jerk. The man has mighty powers and is always quick to offer “advice” which doesn’t really help matters instead of actual aid. He’s come seeking what he wants from Gondor much more than he’s actually been helping. Denethor needed assistance ore than anyone now, but of course Gandalf couldn’t even mutter a “Sorry for your loss,” and IIRC was thinking to conceal Boromir’s death.

Yes, Denethor was extremely pushy. He really didn’t have a lot of time for pleasantries, since he had only the scraps of an army left, knew that Osgiliath was the real last line of defense (once they got to Minas Tirith, it would be all over), and were being attacked everywhere else in Gondor at the same time. And whether it was foolish or not, he was desperate enough to try and get military intelligence from the Palantiri and win, at the cost of Sauron hammering him in the noggin.

Yeah, it finally broke him, but what a way to go! “Sauron personally skull-boned me after I held him off for eighty years. Then I burned myself because I thought I was already dead and ruined a Palantiri just because.”

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I like (book) Denethor. He is a very complex, conflicted character and very respected for a lot of reasons. Like Boromir, his mistake is refusing to admit that his strength has limits. He thinks he can be master of the palantir and the Ring. And really, who wouldn’t be upset at the idea that some guy with a magic sword with no real connection to your country can just waltz in and tell you thanks, here’s your pocketwatch & pink slip, now go away, ex-Steward.

Denethor’s end is possibly the biggest tragedy in ROTK, but like Boromir’s death, what else could you have done with the characters if they survived? After generations of being CEO, demotion to regional VP is not going to sit well. Faramir as a younger son never expected anything else.

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I’ve heard complaints that Faramir was unrecognisable in the film, but it’s really Denethor who had his character assassinated. The Denethor of the book is stern and proud, and ultimately falls into despair. It’s a tragedy of an essentially good man brought low by circumstance. Denethor of the film is simply a megalomaniacal tyrant. It’s partly a problem of time, with so few scenes to establish character it’s inevitable he becomes something of a caricature. It’s also due to the direction Jackson went, LOTR as an action film.

Had he survived the war, I think the Denethor would have recognised Aragorn as king, with Mordor defeated and his son healed.

Well, without Gandalf’s intervention there would have been no help from Rohan. He also makes himself pretty useful after arriving at Minas Tirith, chasing off the Nazgul a couple of times. There is nothing in the book about him concealing Boromir’s death, after Pippin speaks to Ingold he says “That news should have been told to the father first”.

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agreeing with everyone that (book) Denethor is a fascinating, tragic character. Tell me again how Tolkien gets labeled as writing one-dimensional characters?
and why do the interesting threads come along when I have no time?

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Just stopping in to agree with the general tenor of the comments, here. I will say also that I thought Denethor was well* cast* in the movie, but I agree that the script and direction did him (and frankly John Noble) a disservice. He does a little better in the extended, director’s version.

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I see I was wrong and confused by the movie again. Gandafl was not trying to hide Boromir’s death. Still, even a few pages shows Denethor to be brave, not entirely unwelcoming, and much more sensible. I must agree with his decision to hold Osgiliath (and Tolkein well understood strategy).

Almost certainly. In fact, he actually knew Aragorn personally, and was partly miffed that (a) he hadn’t done so fifty years ago, and (b) his father Ecthelion liked Aragorn more than Denethor - which Denethor then relived by

I started laughing at his death scene in the RotK Extended, where it implies that Denethor ran a half-mile while on fire.

I’m not saying Gandalf didn’t help. What I am saying is that Gondor was slowly collapsing for years, while the “wise” basically sat on their asses praying for a miracle. The fact they got one doesn’t make it any less obnoxious from Denethor’s point of view. His soldiers (and eventually, his children) were bleeding and dying to keep Sauron from crushing everyone and everything. Of course, Saruman was actually playing the others for chumps and stabbing the world itself in the back.

What’s cool about it is that, as I recalled, book-Denethor was hoping to hide the Ring so deep that Sauron couldn’t get it unless he’d won already, not realizing that it could corrupt him and many others by doing so. Yet, when he learned of what Gandalf was doing he more or less rolled his eyes and got to work doing what he could.

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another great thing about book Denethor is the relationship with the sons. It’s covered fairly well in the movies (well as opposed to everything else about Denethor is done for shit). I like idea of the one-two punch of losing Boromir and Faramir as driving him over the edge to total madness. That rings true to me, after watching parents (my own and others) react to losing children.

I’m not sure how Denethor would have handled Aragorn’s kingship, had he survived. Denethor would have been an old man; Faramir would have been in a position of authority in Ithilien - Maybe Denethor could have handled the transition. just not sure.

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For me Denethor is one of the most tragic figures of the entire story. It’s his own pride that brings him down; his refusal to consider that Aragorn might actually be not only the heir to the throne, but actually kingly; his belief that he could “spy” on Sauron through the palantir and actually survive; his refusal of Faramir because he was too unlike Denethor. He’s his own worst enemy.

He has valid points; the Stewards of Gondor had performed mightily, and staved off Sauron’s depredations to a remarkable degree. But he forgot that he was a steward. He forgot that stewardship is a selfless task, and he forgot that stewardship is, in and of itself, a noble undertaking. Had he remembered all of this, I have no doubt in my mind that King Elessar would have exalted the house of Denethor and richly and selflessly rewarded his stewardship. Alas, he did not.

Movie-Denethor was one of the most egregious of Jackson’s alterations. There’s an awful lot that I praise Jackson for, and on the whole I love the films, but his portrayal of Denethor was just atrocious.

One other thought - let’s leave the writing of movie Denethor aside for a moment. I like John Noble and think he’s a terrific actor, but I think I would have liked to have seen Bernard Hill as Denethor, if for no other reason than I think he and Sean Bean actually bear some resemblance. It would have highlighted Boromir’s similarity to his father. On the other hand, I can’t imagine a better Theoden, so it’s probably for the best to keep Hill where he was.

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Hated the movie depiction of Denethor. Liked the tragic depiction in the book. For reasons others have stated.

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Chiming in to say that the movie depiction of Denethor doesn’t do credit to the book version.

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Denethor was right to view Aragorn with less than subservience. Aragorn still had to earn the throne of Gondor; just popping up as a descendant of Anarion via Firiel and Isildur via Arvedui was not enough to cut it. Lots of royal descendants had screwed things up royally in Gondor’s past, like Castimir the Usurper. The Kinstrife showed the Dunedain of the south that noble blood didn’t make for noble deeds automatically.

So Denethor was under no obligation to give up any of his authority to Aragorn until Aragorn met certain goals, like being victorious over Sauron in battle and having those healing hands, and wielding Narsil reforged, to name the most well-known.

I appreciated Denethor. He took his duty quite seriously, but was not flexible enough to bend when under extreme stress. Remember, he did not give in to Sauron, though he was daunted and deceived by him. He ultimately betrayed Gondor with his weakness and despair. But that was a by-product of his ruin by Sauron, and not a deliberate act to cause the ruin of Gondor itself.

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Since no one else has brought this up, I guess I might as well: Denethor in the book is a complex, interesting character. Denethor in the movie is a one-dimensional caricature.

I hadn’t read the books in a long, long time when the movies came out, and I picked up RotK after seeing the last movie, and I remember thinking: Wow, I forgot how good Denethor’s character was! As much as I liked the movies, that was my one complaint. I do think you get a bit more of his depth of character in the full, director’s cut. But the cinema version just didn’t do him justice at all.

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Love the movies but hate how I mix and mash the movies and the book together.

Frankly, I think of Denethor as the movie’s Denethor. Gotta find time to read LoTR again, I Guess.

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The differences between the movies and books span the huge and the subtle. it’s actually the subtle ones which bother me the most, barring a few really stupid decisions, like Aragorn’s fake-fall (which had some point in the extended version but was utterly moronic in the cinema edition).

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I love the movies, and I pretty much don’t read the books anymore - the prose is insane and kinda boring to boot - but yes, movie Denethor was a pale shadow of book Denethor.

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Yes, nothing shows the difference between the book and movie versions of Denethor more starkly. Not only has he just learned of the almost hopeless quest to destroy the ring, Gandalf has just told him some very unpalatable truths about his son and himself, which he probably can’t accept - that the ring would have corrupted either of them. His considered response - “It has gone into the shadow, and only time will tell what doom awaits it, and us… In what is left, let all who fight the enemy in their fashion be at one, and keep hope while they may…”.

Denethor finally breaks when he looks in the palantir and sees the corsairs travelling up Anduin. Pippin comments on this after Denethor burns himself, he seemed changed after going to his tower. He is deceived into thinking the south of Gondor is lost, not realising Aragorn has commandeered the fleet. From his perspective, there really is no hope at all.

In the book it’s stated that Denethor and Boromir are not at all alike, and that is part of the reason Boromir is the favoured son.

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I thought the casting of the movie was quite excellent. On the down side, so much was left out from the books … it would have taken 9 movies to actually do everything in the book justice. [Am I the only one who misses Tom Bombadill and Goldberry?]

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No, but I for one am very very happy Bombadil was left out. :slight_smile: I could never take him seriously, not for a second.

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Alka Seltzer - thanks for reminding me about this moment from the book “Denethor finally breaks when he looks in the palantir and sees the corsairs travelling up Anduin.”. My comment on his despair over his sons was referring to the one aspect I think the movies got right.

I really need to reread the books again. It’s been a while.

There’s a lot I missed from the books that weren’t in the movies (Scouring most importantly) but I try to keep the two forms -book & movie - separate. I admire Jackson for what he did manage to accomplish well, which was a lot.

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:eek:

I am outraged, shocked, saddened, and some other bad stuff. I like you too much to harm you but I will have to hunt down and slap the nearest knickerbocker in vengeance.

The bolding above is mine, btw.