Yet Another Tolkein Thread: Denethor

Cafe Society
21

Denethor apparently was a great man, but damn unsympathetic in his actual book appearances. The big reason was his favoring of asshole Boromir (rhymes with boorish) versus noble Faramir (rhymes with fair). Not only did he favor Boromir, he sent Faramir out on a pointless, suicidal mission.

And said a lot of mean things to him.

That doesn’t make for a sympathetic (or well-rounded) character. Apparently the stewards nobly and thanklessly defended the border, but that’s all backstory, apart from the actions of Faramir who Denethor tries multiple times to kill.

Denethor was understandably hesitant to turn over the great kingdom that his family had ruled for 25 generations. In any non-fictional universe “stewards” gets changed to “defender”, “ruler”, then “king” in about six generations.

The movie version didn’t bother me much, because I had a lot of more serious problems with the films, but – in a world where aspect (or appearance) is so closely tied to character, Denethor should have looked more like a movie star. In the book he was noticeably more majestic than Theodan, whereas in the film he was Rasputin.

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I know, it’s shocking. I expected that reaction. But it’s the truth. I still like the stories, but the enjoyment of reading them is totally gone.

23

It’s very much of a style. Tolkien was a linguistics professor, and liked epic poetry. Personally, I find it very easy to read, but his dialogue can be quite jarring when read aloud in the films.

I don’t understand why people say his writing is long-winded. I think he told a lot of story with great economy.

Which he bitterly repents. Also, the defence of Osgiliath is hardly pointless.

24

For some reason I’m never motivated to research until after posting, and this post will not be an exception. My memory is that Faramir (who would know) told his father that it would be a dangerous, ineffectual strategy.

And then after the unconscious Faramir is brought to his father, Dad is so repentant that he can’t be bothered to check for a pulse before immediately burning the body. He’s sad, but it reads like self-pity.

25

Faramir says it will be dangerous, and they might rue the exchange, but it’s sound strategy to contest any choke points.

He is aware that Faramir is still alive, but in his despair he wishes to choose the manner and time of their own end. As I pointed out above, it’s Denethor’s (mistaken) realisation that Gondor is doomed that finally breaks him, that’s not self pity.

26

This is actually brought up in the book. IIRC someone says pretty much just this to Denethor. Proud Denethor says something along the lines of “Well, maybe in sucker kingdoms with punk-ass disloyal and undisciplined stewards. But *this *family takes our honor seriously. Even in 250 generations, we’ll still be stewards, not kings.”

And I’ll echo Qagdop that he never rejects Aragorn; at most he says “Well, we’ll see…” which is a pretty reasonable response given the circumstances (scruffy wandering stranger you’ve never heard of or met is supposed to be given your job leading a country (that doesn’t know him) in the middle of a f*cking war? I’d also say “Well, let’s sort this out when we’re not all about to fight for our lives, OK?”)

Of course, it’s that last part where Denethor eventually fails (like so many in LOTR; though few others die from their lack of hope. But great power fails harder than lesser powers do.)

27

Wait, on one hand you say it’s a style, then on another hand, you say it’s easy to read, then another hand you say the dialogue is jarring, then you say you don’t get why people think his writing is long-winded. Are you an octopus???

I joke, but I am trying to demonstrate to you exactly what you are already saying - it’s a stylistic issue, and I don’t like his style. Neither do I feel obligated to pretend I like his style just because a lot of other people do, and i don’t feel like I am less of a reader or anything because of that. If there’s one thing that I’ve learned growing up it’s that I like what i like and even if five billion people like it, it doesn’t mean there is something wrong with me for not liking it. :slight_smile:

I don’t like his epic poetry, and I find it painful when someone rattles off dialogue that takes the better part of a page in a stressful situation. I prefer succint and short - brevity is the very soul of wit, in other words.

28

That was Faramir, recounting a conversation between Boromir and Denethor to Frodo.

(Boy) Boromir - “How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not?”

Denethor - “Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty. In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice.”

29

I can’t lay hand on my copy of ROTK right now, but my memory regarding the last stand at Osligoth is that Faramir was 99% convincing in his arguments that it was a bad idea. He says he’ll do it even though it’s pointless and he’s very likely to be killed. I’ll need to see some convincing cites to accept the notion that Denethor was being more than 1% reasonable.

And if anyone could provide a cite saying that Denethor knew Faramir wasn’t dead, I’d be interested in that too. That wouldn’t surprise me, but I don’t remember it happening that way.

And if Denethor did know Faramir wasn’t dead, that is even worse evidence that Denethor was horribly repentant for mistreating him…

30

<counts limbs> Nope, pretty sure I’m a biped.

I understand why it’s not to everyone’s taste and what you are saying, I’m giving you my personal take on it. I don’t find it jarring when reading it, because it works in my imagination. It’s just a style the characters of that world use. It doesn’t work so well for me when an actor has to give their interpretation of it, it often sounds forced because it’s a long way from their normal mode of speech.

The often repeated accusation of long-windedness is actually a seperate issue from the style it’s written in. I’d argue that Tolkien packs a lot of story into a relatively short book.

I’ve just been re-reading the book, it’s very clear. “My son, he calls to me”.

You are misunderstanding, please read my post #25 again.

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Well, I can’t discuss this sequence competently until I locate the book, but I’d say that, “My son, he calls to me” could well mean to join him in death. But I’ll drop out until I can review the text.

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I repeat, it’s very clear - that comes after Faramir makes a noise.

33

To me, Tolkien is all about the writing style. I simply love it, though I cannot replicate it on the best day of my life. LotR is a prose poem to me. Well, except for the actual poems, which I love even better.

34

“My biscuits are burning! My biscuits are burning!”

35

First off, Tolkein’s characters made very few mistakes on sheer strategy, and Denethor’s was not unwise, either. If Sauron broke past Osgiliath, then Minas Tirith would certainly fall and Denethor knew it. In such a case, his last hope was that he might receive reinforcements from western Gondor. When he saw the Black Ships coming, it meant that they’d already crushed Prince Imrahil’s troops and everything was lost.

Denethor didn’t know that how much Sauron controlled what he saw, and was deceived. However, his strategy was extremely sound. Faramir didn’t want to contest Osgiliath, since he felt that even with a 10-to-1 kill ratio they’d be driven back and would lose more proportionately. Denethor knew that it didn’t matter: without contesting every advantage, to its fullest extent, he was going to lose.

This utterly pissed me off about the movies, BTW. Thank God (Illuvatar) that Peter Jackson never commanded troops, otherwise he’d probably mount up soldiers and have them charge uphill at prepared enemies with machine guns or some nonsense. And maybe paint targets on them or something.

36

I located my book and a quick read shows I was way off base about Denethor thinking Faramir was dead. Regarding the defense of Osgiliath your summary is mostly in line with my impression, except that I don’t think Denethor saw Osgiliath as crucial to the Minas Tirith battle. It was just another point to contest.

I’m revising my assessment of the Faramir’s mission to Osgiliath as 65% dumb rather than 99%. Faramir was against it, the Dol Amrath didn’t seem thrilled about it, and afterwards Denethor describes Faramir’s involvement as “needless.”

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One (maybe interesting) point about about the characterization of Denethor is that he --like previous stewards-- displays such respect for prophecy, and yet seems contemptuous of Faramir’s research into arcane knowledge.

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That’s because Faramir’s research was guided by Mithrandir, whom Denethor resented.

Denethor was a great man, and in most times would have been the leading man of his time. One of his problems was that just as he reached maturity, this guy Thorongil, who resembled him as much as two peas in a pod, came along and kinda supplanted Denethor in the affections of his father Ecthelion and the people of Minas Tirith. And Thorongil told them to trust Mithrandir (Gandalf) rather than Saruman. Eventually, after Thorongil had left (of his own choice, and much to the disappointment of Ecthelion et al) and Denethor had inherited, Denethor discovered that Thorongil was Aragorn, and suspected that he and Gandalf were plotting to supplant him.

So Denethor did not trust Gandalf at all, and if he’d been inclined towards Faramir, the son who resembled him more, that went out the window when Faramir seemed to his eyes to prefer Mithrandir to himself as a teacher.

Aragorn meant well, and he certainly needed the time of training in Minas Tirith, but I suspect his appearance and performance contributed a great deal to the over all warping of Denethor’s character. I see Denthor as having been twisted by thwarted pride and desire for accolade from his own father. Overall he was a great man, and a great leader, but he had certain weak spots, and the personal pride of ego, rather than the public pride of country/culture was one of them. He put Gondor first (that is, before himself), but not without a serious struggle. His son Faramir, who had Denethor’s virtues without his weaknesses, never had that struggle, because his pride was of a different sort. Faramir kinda prided himself on his humility, if you will. “Not if I found it on the highway would I take it,” and all that.

And yes, it’s good to remember that his ultimate despair was due not only to his perceived loss of both sons, but also by his belief that Minas Tirith was doomed, and that the latter was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Even twisted as he was, he maintained his sense of duty until he believed it to be truly hopeless.

39

A good summary Oy! There is also the influence of the palantir to consider. Denetor is aged before his time from using it, and deceived into thinking Saron’s forces are even more overwhelming than they actually are.

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You rock.