love the sinner...= separate but equal

Great Debates
21

Breaking the law is a sin, unless the law goes directly against what God wants.

That’s a little different. They still do think it’s a sin. They’re not going to treat you differently in most respects, but they aren’t going to help you sin. I mean, I can see how that sucks for you, and I’m not sure that I am totally pleased with that, but I can see their point, too. They’re not going to sell you radar detectors, either.

and

I can’t speak for other churches, because I used to never really listen to sermons, but our pastor does preach about stuff like that. I’ve never heard him preach about homosexuality, but I’ve heard him talk about the evils of not paying debts, of stealing from your boss by goofing off when you are supposed to be working, things like that. He had like three sermons on managing your money in a Godly way.

Some kind of protestant; it’s my husband’s church. The pastor is one of his good friends.

Frankly, I think some people need to accept that not everyone is going to like everything you do. If they don’t like something you do, they are not going to help you do it. Sorry, you can’t FORCE someone to HELP YOU do something they think is wrong.

But if they love you regardless of you doing the thing they don’t like, if they consider you to be just as valid a person as anyone else, that’s not hateful. Furthermore, they shouldn’t have to apologize for not agreeing with your actions.

Do you have any friends who have different political views than you do? Do you have any friends who listen to music that you don’t like? If you don’t smoke, do you have any friends that do?

It is completely possible to hate something that a person does, and still like the person.

22

I go totally with the “love the sinner, hate the sin” situation. I have several gay friends. One of those is very close to me actually. I dont treat him any differently than I do any of my straight friends.

I follow the bible. I treat everyone who sins the same, for we are all sinners. Of course, its the people who try to avoid it in the first place that get my utmost repspect. I will still be friends with blatant sinners, but they will never be as close to me as somebody who tries to avoid sins like I try to do. I dont always succeed, but I try my hardest.

I treat them all the same. Thieves, liars, cheats, dishonest, and homosexuals. I treat them all as human beings. I will treat murders exactly the same as well, albiet with much caution on my part. murders are humans too, and even though I dont agree with choices they’ve made in the past, they still have a soul.

Isnt this also exactly what Christ did? He was mocked and looked down upon for eating with tax-collectors -known thieves-. I strive to model myself upon what Christ did. If one of my gay friends asks me what I think about it, or it comes up in a conversation, I will tell them the truth that they are biblicly living in sin in God’s eyes. Christ would do the same would He not?

23

agh I swear. Every time I post I see stupid typos. Mea culpa.

24

ThatGuy, I don’t think you meant to be offensive by saying that, but I can see why some people might be hurt by it. It’s hard to say this without sounding like I am contradicting myself, but you have to recognize that even though God sees all sin the same, and we are supposed to, there is something inherent in human nature that doesn’t see things this way. Sort of a competitive thing, I guess. I’m less of a sinner than you are, see?

If I was going to say what you tried to say, I’d probably phrase it like this: “I treat them all the same. People who have sex, live together, or have babies outside of marriage, people who get divorced, people who have multiple partners, and homosexuals.”

I kind of think that sounds less offensive, but I could be wrong. I would point out that I have had multiple partners, and I was living with a seperated man and had a baby with him not only before we got married, but before he was officially divorced. I’m a sinner, too.

25

SlowMindThinking, if that’s what you term ‘blatantly prejudicial anti-Christianity’, you’ve got a mighty thin skin. But please, feel free to disprove that remark above in any way. Give me some evidence to the contrary. I’d love to see it.

Cessandra, don’t you think it’s kind of odd that, though your church teaches you that all sins are the same before God, gay peoples’ sin is so bad that they’re denied the sacrament of marriage? Do you ever think that it’s strange to accuse consenting adults who love each other of committing a sin?

You’re a prime example of the damage that’s done by the ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ dogma. If you think you’re loving me, while you’re doing things that hurt my partner and I, well, then everything’s just hunky-dory, isn’t it?

The truth is, I’m inseparable from my homosexuality. It’s part of who I am, just as your orientation is part of who you are. If you hate it, you can’t love me, because every other aspect of my life is colored by my sexual orientation. It would be like trying to love me, but hating my skin color.

You’ve seen ThatGuyWithPants associate homosexuals with murderers, thieves, liars and cheats. That’s another good example of the damage done by this doctrine. 'Cause here’s the thing; I’m not doing anything wrong.

When I love my partner, care about him, listen to him, play with him, commisserate and share and goof around with him, when we share our lives and our feelings and our happiness, that’s love. It’s not sin.

And any God who can’t tell the difference isn’t worth the paper He’s written on.

26

Of course it wassnt meant to be offensive, but its entirely true. Yeah, I know what you mean by the physical self placing some sins above others (even though we both agree that God sees them all as equal), but thats not the point. The point is, we should all try to be as Godlike as possible. If that involves attempting to be as objective about sins as possible, than so be it. Personally, I am not “scared” by knowing a theif, a gambler, the sexually immoral, or a homosexual. Just because I treat them all the same (as humans) does that make me a bad person?

And what was with you saying you sin less than I do? You dont know me, dont assume anything. I would expect similar out of a 5 year old rather than a mature adult. Other than that, I believe you made your point well. (On the count that you were using the comment as an example rather than an attack, I sincerely appologize. I hope this is the case because your comments are very well founded and well thought out.)

In your haste to “PC” my last post however, you missed the point that I really did take the situation lightly. read the bible for 5 minutes and you’ll come across at least 5 or 6 “lists” of sins to avoid, many of which have “murderers” right next to “homosexuals”. I chose not to place the two next to eachother even though in God’s eyes they are one in the same. What you said was “less offencive” than what I said granted, but you should understand that what I said was also “less offencive” than the truth written in the bible.

Now to my brief tangent:

MrVisible, I understand where you are comming from, but your logic in this case is false. You are going into the discussion automaticly assuming that “love the sinner, hate the sin” is false, and personally, I am completely apalled that you would make such a horrible comparison of homosexuality with skin color. If you would even bother to view the biblical standpoint, God does not “breed sinners”. A kid with alcoholic parrents might be more prone to becoming an alcoholic than a kid with sober parents, but that is no way means that the kid with the alcoholic parents cant be sober his entire life and the kid with sober parents cant become an alcoholic. Colored people are born the way they are, not to mention the fact that hating a person because of their skin is just plain wrong. Skin is a physical thing. I cant hate a bunch of cells because they have a different pigmintation than others. You completely miss the fact that racists are racists only because they need a scapegoat for their anger, and thus place it on some person who was born with a specific colored skin. Colored people cant help the fact that they are born colored. IF being colored was a sin, then God “breeds” sinners, which God doesnt do. God does not “breed” surefire homosexuals either. The idea that you are “born that way” completely defys everything that makes God good.

Your life being influenced on your sexual preference is nobodys choice but your own. I’ve seen the steriotypical gay that has a lisp and wears fanny packs all the time. I’ve also seen gays who you would never even imagine in a million years would be gay. People can change their character, just like the kid with alcoholic parents can be sober. That is why I said your logic is false.

It is entirely possible to hate a sin and love a person, and your blatant disregard for it is no difference than a person prejudicing another. Unless you fully stop and look at the other persons arguement logicly, you will never get the full picture. I told you, I know homosexuals. I understand the lifestyle. I dont go blatantly prejudicing them because of it either. All I ask is that you not do the same for people who follow God.

Once again. False logic. You assume that God is “hunky-dory” with homosexuality. You also assume that God was created when he was written. It is in NO way up to you whether God has the right to tell the difference. Its not up to me, its not up the president, its not up to some random guy on the street. It is up to God and God only. If you dont like the idea that God might judge you for it, then dont take it up with anybody on the SDMB, take it up with God.

I hope atleast you understand where I am comming from when I write this. You as a person, I respect for being able to coment on it. I disagree with your lifestyle. If that is not proof that “hate the sin, love the sinner” is truely possible, than I dont know what is. If I hated you, I wouldnt have even bothered to comment. I hope you understand what I am saying.

27

I know this is IMHO, but… Cite?

28

I think you’re missing the point. The church doesn’t deny you a sacrament because your sin is so bad. It is not a matter of “you are so evil that you can’t get married.” They feel that the marriage itself would be a sin, and churches generally aren’t in the business of spreading sin. At least, not good ones.

Actually, I do. I’m not entirely sure that it IS a sin. I’m still trying to learn and understand the Bible, and this is one question that is not entirely settled in my mind, yet. But if my God did in fact say that it is a sin, then I have to accept that and accept that His judgement is better than mine. And frankly, if you want to hate me for that, then it is you who is being judgemental.

Could you please explain to me what exactly I am doing that affects you? Because I don’t think my church should have to help you do something they think is a sin? Notice that I didn’t say I think it should be illegal for you to marry. Even if it is a sin, I happen to feel that the law should be blind to that. You should be able to have a nice big formal wedding either at a church that agrees with you, or someplace that isn’t a church.

I don’t consider my sexual orientation to be a big part of who I am. Funny enough, I do consider my religion (however newfound) to be THE biggest part.

You don’t feel you are doing anything wrong, and that is fine. That’s why it’s so nice to live in the USA. Because ThatGuy can think something you do is wrong, you can disagree, and you can go on living your life however you want. But this trying to force people to disrergard what they feel is a mandate from their God is, frankly, on par with them suggesting you get professional help for your “disease.”

Thanks for insulting something so important to me. Forgive me if I fail to insult you back. My worthless God doesn’t think I should do things that way. :frowning:

ThatGuy, Sorry, the only point I was trying to make with my post to you was that, while I totally understand where you are coming from, I can also see why people who are not Christian would not be looking at your statement from a Christian point of view, and might feel hurt by it. I can’t imagine that you would want someone to be hurt by something you said when you had no intention of being offensive. BTW, I didn’t say that I sin less that you (ha, that’s doubtful!), I was still explaining the attitude some people have.

29

Christians are quite different in their viewpoints, and also churches are too.
We can’t judge Cessandra’s church without having some statement by a higher up in it on homosexuality.
Some churches are more liberal than others; doesn’t mean God agrees with a certain denomination.
Am I making sense?

30

vanilla, since it is such a big question in society, it’s one I’ve been trying to figure it out for awhile. I’ve spoken to my pastor, and my representation of “how my church feels” is directly from him. Do note, however, that this is not the same thing as “how I feel,” since I’m still trying to understand the issue.

I can’t say I’ve ever seen this “in action” except through my husband’s actions. He’s just as friendly to the obviously* gay people we’ve met as he is to anyone else.

*Obviously gay doesn’t mean they were flaming. I mean, the landlord who worked in a gay bar and talked about his boyfriend was obviously gay. But that wasn’t nearly as important as what a great guy he was.

31

ThatGuyWithPants, please take some time and learn what the word ‘logic’ means. You’re misapplying it all over the place, and it’s annoying.

Your telling me that I chose to be homosexual is laughable. How the heck would you know? Prove it. You can start proving it by choosing to change your own sexual orientation. Spend a decade as a homosexual, and then get back to me.

Meanwhile, explain to me how, as a twelve year old kid, never having been exposed to any positive information about homosexuality, never having even thought about the issue, I found myself trying to figure out why I was attracted to other boys my age. Do you really think that I chose to be gay, way back then? When the very idea scared the crap out of me? When it would do nothing but alienate me from my family and my friends, isolate me from all support systems, and very nearly drive me to suicide, for decades?

Let me tell you something. If I could have chosen to be straight, I would have. I tried. I couldn’t.

Don’t tell me I chose to be gay. It just proves you know nothing at all about me.

About the race comparison, do some research on interracial marriage, and the religious justifications used to perpetuate its legal persecution. See if the situations seem analogous to you.

Oh, and God has never judged me for being gay. His followers, however, do so all the time. How God feels about my love is between me and Him.

When come back, bring facts.

Cessandra, since I don’t know what church you belong to, I can only comment on what you’ve reported is being done. Let me ask you; what good is it doing to tell the world that I am a sinner? What useful purpose does it serve? Conversely, what harm am I and my partner doing to the country, to the world, to your faith, to God even, by loving each other, and committing our lives to each other?

Are you aware of the culture of intolerance that gay people have to put up with in the US? The hatred, both verbal and physical, that gay people endure? Are you informed about the suicide statistics on gay teenagers? And… here’s the kicker… don’t you believe that the reinforcement of the idea that gays are bad, by the churches who preach that gay love is a sin, is contributing to that oppressive environment?

My comment which you found offensive above, in full was:

God is supposed to be a god of love. Right? God loves his children, and commands us to love him, and love our neighbors as ourselves. But somehow, in some religions, it’s been forgotten. Instead, they’ve found themselves worshipping a set of rules, a manual. It’s not worth worshipping. It’s not worth worshipping; it’s a collection of rules, written on paper, by fallible humans.

When you find yourself condemning people for loving each other, in the name of love, it’s time to take a step back and examine the reasons why you’re being told to do so.

If you’re worshipping the words, and not the love, then God is nowhere near your church.

32

Fuckin’ well told, o’ visible one!

I’ve tried, through the SDMB mostly, to “respect” peoples’ religion. I can’t. It gets back to the same ol’ song ‘n’ dance. Who’s a sinner or who’s a bigger sinner. I respect each person’s right to believe what they want to believe, but I do not respect a religion that condemns people for expressing their love for someone. I’m done pussyfooting around with the doubletalk and the “logic” that goes behind the religious decision to “hate the sin/sinner”. It’s a load of crap.

Y’all can discuss it with your church leaders, hold a rally, tell people whatever you want about their sin. I want nothing to do with an organization that systematically denies people the right to be who they are without the threat of hellfire and damnation. It’s wrong. And you’re basing your decision on the word of a diety who you simply HOPE actually exists. I’m disgusted with the whole ugly scene.

33

MrVisible, I really don’t think you and are all that far apart. Before I answer anything in your post, I just want to let you know the reason why I am posting in this thread in the first place. I just want you, and others, to know that not everyone who is a Christian hates you. Not everyone thinks you are a bad person. Not everyone thinks you will go to Hell. Even if being gay is a sin, God still loves you, and I still love you, too. I just know that sounds horribly condescending, but I really do want to convey some of that love, and let you know that it is not contingent on anything. I hope you can find it in your heart to take that at face value.

None that I can think of. If, perhaps, you did not know that Christianity considers your lifestyle to be sinful, it might be useful to tell you in the hopes that you would want to change. But I know that you don’t see your lifestyle as wrong, and I know you probably hear about it enough. The only reason I am even talking about it hear is what I said above, to show you that it’s not all about hate. If not for that, I really wouldn’t talk about it. I don’t see it as doing anything other than hurting people’s feelings.

[quote]
Conversely, what harm am I and my partner doing to the country, to the world, to your faith, to God even, by loving each other, and committing our lives to each other?

[quote]

Well, you aren’t going to like me saying this, but sin hurts God and brings evil into the world. But, IMO, the way that I should attempt to fight this is for ME not to sin. Not for me to bug you.

Yes, I know about all of this. I find it awful. The hate that some people bring into this world is positively evil. I never wish evil on others.

I realize that some people will take it to these extremes, but they are in the wrong. I also believe that abortion is wrong, but I do not feel responsible for those who shoot abortion doctors or bomb clinics. Those people (the shooters/bombers) choose to sin, and I feel for the families of their victims. But that doesn’t mean I have to believe that abortion is not wrong.

God does love you. God doesn’t stop loving you when you sin.

This is the fallacy of humans that they forget that God loves and forgives. God sent His Son to die on the cross so that we would all be forgiven. He didn’t say, “All will be forgiven except the gays.”

It is not God who is wrong.

34

Oh My,God doesn’t want any of us to be cruel or judgemental towards anyone even if they are commiting a Sin,because God is the only one with that right. So if you judge someone who is homosexual in Gods eyes,you are being just as sinful as they are. Godspeed,Monica

35

By the way Cessandra is full on correct.

36

Here here Cessandra! I couldn’t have put it in better words myself.

And MrVisible I am very disheartened on the way that you are addressing this situation. Its one thing to keep God out of your reasoning for your homosexuality, but its a completely different matter when you try to justify yourself and use God as a way to support yourself. You claim I am lacking facts, yet you are lacking facts as well.

I understand fully that you refuse to give up your crutch that you were “born that way”, even though it completely goes against everything God is about. I will agree with you that you were born prone to being homosexual, but God, nor man, nor anybody else forced you into that lifestyle other than yourself. With the reasoning that you are using, we should encourage all 12 year olds with alcoholic parents to drink all they want because they were born that way. I know I use that analogy a lot, but its the exact same thing if you look at it logically. Do I doubt you looked at guys differently at 12? No, I don’t doubt it for a second. Do I doubt kids are tempted by alcohol at 12? No, I don’t doubt it for a second. But its nobody’s choice but the person who follows that temptation. Just remember that the “born that way” excuse is nothing more than that: an excuse. If you find what I said confusing, read over it again.

You say I never hear anything positive said about homosexuality? You have got to be kidding me. If you don’t know how much the world pampers the homosexual community anymore, then I am totally in shock. Do I even need to bring up Will and Grace? That one show on HBO? MTV for 5 seconds, TaTu, 3 separate gay/straight groups at my High School, numerous rally’s with positive feedback from the public…I could go on and on. The idea of saying that homosexuals are mistreated by everyone is nothing but a delusion anymore. After Shepard died a few years ago, can you think of ANY instances (not including religious groups that tend to flame easily) where it was said that it was “justified”? Sure there are people out there who said it, but I personally never met one. Now if you are honestly going to tell me that I grew up in a society where homosexuality was poo-pooed all the time, you’ve got another thing coming. Its been harder to follow the truth of the bible most of the time rather than to just say that they are sinless. If anything, I should be the one saying that I have been oppressed for actually following God correctly. It isn’t easy to walk the strait and narrow, but you don’t see me saying that I’m oppressed. I chose this life for myself, and I will bear the consequences it brings. The point is I have the guts to say that I chose it and I chose it proudly.

Well I’m glad you at least agree with that. The problem is, you think Cessandra and I are only talking to you about this because we are ignorant Christians. The truth is exactly what Cessandra said…we are doing this because we love you. I wouldn’t even bother to write any of this if I hated you. Actually, if I hated you I would do the stupid thing and try to rake you over the coals. That would prove nothing, and I have no desire to do so. I would not be a good Christian if I did not speak when the opportunity arose. If you wish to stereotype all Christians as gay-bashers, please, take a look at this entire thread here. Here you see people simply stating the biblical truth that homosexuality is a sin. No name calling, no hate-filled attacks, no nothing of the sort. I am simply stating the truth, and defending God’s righteous word. As you said though, what God feels about your homosexuality is between you and Him…but who is God’s mouth when He cant speak? Who is God’s hands when he cant comfort? These people are the righteous Christians…people who I am proudly a member of and daily strive to be the best I can be. If you are not willing to read God’s word objectively without taking your own bias’s in, in the first place, how else is God to tell you the truth. But by all means, don’t take it from me. Read. Study. Learn God’s truths with your own eyes in His inspired word. If you still have an issue with it after that, then there really is no hope to show the truth.

37

Good lord, that’s the most hurtful thing I’ve read today. ThatGuyWithPants deserves a pitting.

38

That’s true. That goes to show that people who say “all sins are equal” really haven’t thought things true. (That statement is nowhere taught in the Bible, BTW. Quite the contrary; it denounces all sin, but identifies various ones as “abominations.”)

39

No, it’s people’s interpretations of the Bible that are wrong. It’s churches who base their ideas on these interpretations who are wrong. It’s people who hate gays based on the word spread by these churches who are wrong.

Please keep in mind that the OP of this thread was comparing the ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ doctrine to the ‘separate but equal’ policy that was used as a tool of oppression against black people in this country for years. The paralell that I drew earlier between the denial of the right of homosexuals to marry and the denial of the rights of interracial couples to marry stands, and has yet to be rationally disputed. The same arguments, the same churches in a lot of cases, are against gay marriage; the same ‘destroying the foundation of American life’ rhetoric, the same appeals to keep the minority in their place.

I bring this up not to make you feel guilty, but to let you know that in the past, churches have taken stances which have been, considered from today’s viewpoint, morally abhorrent. In very similar circumstances to what we see today in regards to gay marriage, churches have come to realize that the love of two people for each other comes before the interpretations that can be laid upon the Bible.

What I want to convey is a message of hope. You’ve changed before, in the name of love and compassion for your fellow humans. You can do it again. I have faith in you. People like you, Cessandra, realized that their church was hurting people by advocating an intolerably biased political stance. They realized that there was more support in the Bible for loving these couples than for discriminating against them. And then they changed their beliefs to be more true to the message of Jesus.

You can do it again.

Every sentence you’ve written about my marriage could have been said to someone who wanted to marry outside their race in the sixties. Imagine saying them to a white woman who wanted to marry a black man. Think of trying to justify that stance as being loving. Then try to imagine, a few decades from now, that your grandchildren will feel the same shame about your current prejudices as you have for the people who supported earlier discriminations. Those people were just like you; they thought they were doing the right thing. They thought they were showing the people they oppressed God’s love.

They were just as wrong as you are now.

If gay people are going to gain their rightful status as full citizens of this country, then what we’re going to need most is for people like you, Cessandra, to look beyond what you’re being taught in your churches, and look to God for yourself, and think about what He really wants you to do. What love your neighbor really means. Because there’s a whole class of people who are suffering in God’s name right now, and the only ones who can stop it are just like you.

40

Or at least should provide that cite I asked for.