MrVisible it seems that you are baseing your entire argument on thinking that you are being forbidden to marry. Perhaps you are, by the State. But even if your marriage was legal, you insist that the Church should have to bless that which it sees as sin.
Your plea for acceptance is hypocritical, as you refuse to accept us. You don’t just want to live in peace. You want the Church to participate in your lifestyle. You want the Church to raise your lifestyle up as holy and pure. And until that happens you insist on seeing hate where only love exists.
sorry about that jr. I’ll be honest, my entire basis of citation is directly from the bible. If people want to say that they are born gay, thats fine, but it would go against God’s nature. Why would God allow somebody to be born to automaticly have a sin (and no, I’m not refering to calvanism)? Everyone is tempted exactly the same. What MrVisible is “tempted” with it exactly the same amount of temptation that I have in some other area, or you have in some other area. Its not always concentrated to one specific sin however. If you need more claification than that, feel free to ask.
samarm with all honesty, please show me what about that coment was hurtful. I fail to see anything false or hurtful in it any more so than any comment directed at me. are pittings being biased on personal belief now? I thought they were based on people being generally stupid…how is what I said stupid? but please, I really am curious as to what you think on the manner.
I seem to have given you the wrong impression, Cessandra.
What I want churches to do is stop opposing gays’ right to marry. I don’t particularly care if I can get married in a church; but it’s churches and religious organizations and, more to the point, people who are taught in churches that gay marriage is a threat to the institution of marriage, who are exerting the political pressure to keep gay marriage illegal.
I apologize if I haven’t explained that thoroughly as of yet.
As to seeing hate when only love exists, well, I judge people by their actions, and not their words. And as a result of coordinated efforts by religious political factions, my partner and I cannot currently get married. Living as married, without the legal provisions therefore, has a tremendous negative impact on us.
I was also hoping that you would see the argument that I made comparing the current situation with gay marriage and the prior reversal of religious attitude toward interracial marriage, and realize that churches have made mistakes before, and have taken steps to correct them. I’d appreciate it if you’d take the time to address why you believe the situation with gay marriage is different.
note that the “abominable” sins you refered to are the ones that directly influence other people as well as yourself when you commit them. Lying not only hurts oneself when they commit it, but it also can hurt the one you are lyring to. Murder is an obvious example of this as well. Lusting after somebody else is a personal sin, but doesnt effect the person you are lusting after directly (depending on if its kept in your head or not)
I could be mistaken about this, but thats how I’ve always seen it. murder, lying and lust are all biblicly on the same level, but 2 of those can do a lot more physical damage than the third. That goes against “Do unto others as you would have do unto you” rule. I dont quite understand it myself, but wouldnt that be 2 sins then? I just say just avoid any of 'em.
MrVisible, I don’t know how or even if the church’s position on the two are different, because, frankly, I wasn’t born yet when interracial marriages were forbidden. I have no direct knowledge or understanding of the situation, and I am not qualified to make comparisons. However, what I do understand is that it is no more your place to tell the Church to change their position than it is my place to tell you to change your lifestyle.
Furthermore, as I said previously, I can’t comment on a law being based on a religious belief because I feel that is wrong to begin with. For one thing, I feel that the mixing of government and religion is harmful to both. Secondly, I don’t see a need for most laws unless they address personal safety and property rights. Don’t kill, don’t rape, don’t steal. The less the government intrudes in a person’s life, the better, I say.
I don’t support any laws that tell a person who they can sleep with or marry, short of age of consent. I do support the Church’s right to believe that some of these actions are immoral and sinful. And I support the Church’s right to decide which actions these are based on honest interpretations of the Bible and nothing else.
I’m sorry if you are upset that you end up in the sinful category. But there is really only one person who isn’t standing in sin right there with you, and He suggested that we try to love one another despite our faults. He’s the only one who is perfect, so I think I’ll try to follow what He says.
I think what “all sins are equal” means is that all sins are forgiven equally. I was forgiven for premarital sex just as easily as for fibbing to a teacher in school.
MrVisible, just out of curiosity…where in the bible does it say that interratial marrage is wrong? I know thats why I personally have not delved into that deeply. I personally havent found anywhere where it says that it is a sin to marry somebody of a different color. I’ve never seen it, but I could be mistaken.
I honestly do sympathise with any “discrimination” that you recieved that was out of line. Anybody who would not treat you as the bible does not command are very much out of line. Anybody who made fun of you, riddiculed you, or even possibly hurt you physicly (I hope not…) were simply dead wrong. Its one thing to treat you like a human, and another to encourage something that the bible says is wrong. For that matter alone is the reason Christians wont allow homosexual marrages. The book we follow says that it is a sin. To throw that out the window and encourage a sin is exactly like the kid/alcohol analogy I’ve used up the wazoo. Its one thing to prevent marrage, and another thing to harass though…
Well, many do claim that no sin is worse than another, which is a decidedly a more logical and intuitive interpretation of “all sins are equal.” Of course, this claim is wrong, and nowhere supported by the Bible. It seems to me that your statement would be more accurately rendered “All sins are forgivable” rather than equal.
Besides, if all sins can be forgiven, but not equally heinous, then there’s no inherent inconsistency in mentioning homosexuality (or any specific sin) in discussions of “hate the sin, love the sinner.” One might argue about whether something is a sin, but there’s no inherent inconsistency in pointing out a given one.
JT, Do you think that there are different levels of eternal punishment for the different kind of sins? Just wondering.
I like to look at Uzzah in the old testament. He touched the ark. Whoopty doo dah day. God told him not to, and he knew it too. He died the instant he touched it. How does that relate?
A thirty-second Google search turned up the following:
I really don’t feel like perusing the white supremacist web sites to find out what their current biblical justifications are, but be reassured, they’re there. The Bible has been used to justify all sorts of hateful politics in the past. How do you know this issue is any different?
So, ThatGuyWithPants, if homosexuality is analogous to alcoholism, and you’re opposed to the legalization of homosexual marriage, I assume that you’re agitating to reinstate Prohibition. Right?
That is truely sad, but its not what I said. Does the bible give commandments to bomb abortion clinics? no…Do people still do it? Yes… Just because somebody claims a religion doesnt mean they follow it. This is well beyond “interpretation” anymore. This is about what the bible says plain and sure. As of yet, I have to see anything that says that African Americans and whites can not marry in the bible. I havent even seen anything illude to that fact.
In an ideal world: yes. We tried it once before, but everything went down the hole real quick. This is not a matter of prohibition though. This is a matter of using your logic, the two are exactly the same. If it makes the 12 year old happy to drink on the weekends, why not!? Thats a question I am asking you, because it is on the exact same page.
You don’t see it now, ThatGuyWithPants, because your church hasn’t been pounding their interpretation of the Bible that supports it into you for years. But be assured, if you were in a church that opposed interracial marriage back in the Sixties, you would see dozens of justifications for your prejudices, all over the Bible.
Perceptions of what the Bible says is right change over time.
I really don’t want to dignify your alcoholic analogy with a response, ThatGuyWithPants. The analogy is flawed; unless you can prove that my having a homosexual relationship is as damaging as me being an active alcoholic, it doesn’t hold up.
I don’t see an inherent inconsistency to begin with. If it was, then no Church could ever have a sermon that didn’t discuss every single sin without being hypocritical. You talk about homosexuality today, you talk about cheating on your taxes tomorrow, that to me makes sense.
You’re intentionally trying to pick something in my posts to find offensive. “Lifestyle” is the word most used on this board by both gays and straights to describe what I was trying to get across. If you choose to be offended for no reason, then yes, that is your problem.
I just say just avoid any of 'em.