Mac networking - help with my quick & sloppy "network"

[levdrakon]

Hopefully a Mac, OS X, networking geek will be able to help/educate me.

Been using Macs since about '91. I felt pretty comfortable dinking with and tweaking OS’s 6-9, and have been using OS X since about the time it first came out, but don’t feel all that comfortable with it. I mean, I’m comfortable using it, but I don’t feel I really understand how it really works, if that makes sense.

I have some experience networking computers in general, but honestly have never networked two Macs. I always assumed when the time came it would be as easy as most things are with Macs.

Maybe it’s too easy. I think my Macs are doing things for me, and not telling me what they’re doing or how or why, but it’s not working as I’d like.

So, here’s my quick and dirty network story. I know it’s not an ideal or proper network but it’s all I have for now and I suspect it could be working much better than it is, if only I knew what was going on. Sorry for being long winded.

I have a CRT iMac running OS 10.1.5. My roommate just got a Powerbook 17" running OS 10.3. I have cable broadband internet. A friend gave me an old hub she wasn’t using and I decided to see if it would work so the two Macs could share the internet connection. The Hub is a Hawking PN500TPA 5-port 10Mbps Ethernet Hub.

I plugged the cable modem into the main port on the hub, then plugged my computer into the second port (the first port didn’t seem to be working, which I understand is not uncommon), and my roommate’s computer into the third hub. It works! We both share the internet connection.

So then I thought, “maybe I can network our computers.” I turned on file sharing on both computers. I have a shared public folder. For some reason, my roommate’s computer does not. Hmm. How does Panther share files if it doesn’t have a shared public folder?

Under the Finder if I go to the Go menu then Connect to Server it gives me the option of searching Appletalk and Local Network, but doesn’t find his computer either way. Actually, when I first tried this, it did “see” his computer but when I clicked on it, it said “no drive to mount” or some such thing. Now it doesn’t find anything. From his computer going to Connect to Server also doesn’t find my computer.

So at this point I figured we’re not networked. Then things get interesting.

We were both using the file sharing app Limewire one day. I did a search for the types of files he happens to have shared under Limewire and all his files showed up in blue under “quality”, which means Local Network, and under speed it said “Ethernet.” Same thing on his computer, all my files showed up blue and Ethernet.

Then we were playing with iChat and AIM, the instant messenger program. We decided to try transferring some files. Roommate sends me a 32MB video file and it transfers at basically “ethernet” speeds. It took something like 5-10 seconds to transfer. No way was it going over the internet, our upload speed via the cable modem is no more than say, 100-200Kps. Strangely, when I send a file to him from my computer, it transfers much more slowly. Not sure if it’s going over the internet or not, but it seems about that slow. Also interestingly, it makes a difference if I send the file to him, or he “takes” the file from me. For instance under AIM if I “send a file” to him, it goes at what seems about the speed of our internet connection. But if I make the file available for sharing, then go to his computer and choose “get a file,” it goes significantly faster. But again, I’m not sure if it’s going faster via the internet, or if it’s going a bit faster than that, over the ethernet connection.

Finally, we decided to see if we could play the network game Aliens vs. Predator. In order to play the game networked, one computer on the local network has to host the game, then the other computer joins the game in progress. I tried hosting the game from my roommate’s powerbook. From my computer there was no game found. So I tried hosting the game from my computer, and my roommate’s computer immediately saw the game, joined it and we were able to play (I kicked his ass, BTW).

So, programs like Limewire, AIM and Aliens vs Predator more or less know the two computers are networked, but not completely networked. The OSs’ Finders however, don’t see the computers as networked.

Any thoughts, suggestions, etc? My first thought is that I’ve heard OS 10.1.5 is a bit buggy. My next thought is the hub really isn’t designed for this. My last thought is maybe it’s just the way I have everything wired.

Thanks in advance if you can help!

[levdrakon]

Another thing I forgot to mention:

At one point I tried networking the two computers directly using a Cat 5 crossover cable. I was able to “see” the powerbook from my iMac, but there was nothing accessible on his computer. From his computer, my computer didn’t show up at all.

[rjung]

First off, I’d say to get off 10.1.5 and move up to 10.2 or better. My CRT iMac (450MHz slot-loading) is running 10.3.3, and it’s a dream.

Assuming you upgrade to 10.2/10.3 and still have problems, you may want to check Apple’s networking tutorials here. This page covers the basics, and seems to reaffirm what you have tried.

[AHunter3]

First off, sharing an internet connection is not the same thing as sharing a folder for purposes of copying files back and forth. The latter can be arranged without an internet connection anywhere in sight as long as you’ve got the wires.

Second, sharing under MacOS X is indeed a mass of unnecessarily complicated spaghetti compared to sharing under everything between System 7 and MacOS 9. You may prefer the additional flexibility provided by freeware System PrefsPane “SharePoints”, which makes it a lot more explicit what it is that you’re sharing and with whom and how, but even with SharePoints, file sharing under MacOS X is a tangle of messy spaghetti.

By far the easiest thing to so is to give the guest-person an administrative account (username and pw with admin privs). If there is sufficient mutual trust to go that route, you can each mount the entirety of all of the volumes of the other’s computer without lots of permissions hassles. (At least with no more than OS X would impose on you if you were sitting at the remote machine). Also easy is sharing your default shares (using the built-in file sharing) or other resouces (using SharePoints) as read-only.

(Trying to share a resource outside of ~/ as other than read-only without sharing your entire directory structure to them is one of the bigger challenges, one that has prompted more than one curmudgeonly rant on my part about Apple screwing up things that used to work just fine. I’ve about decided that the easiest way to have granular and reliable file sharing control under OS X is to install DAVE on both boxes and use the DAVE implementation of SMB)

Now, if you aren’t sharing an internet connection, you’ll want to use AppleTalk, the old plain-vanilla version that doesn’t have to piggyback over TCP/IP in order to work. Both 10.1 and 10.3 have it, but you may need to dig around in the Sharing and Network PrefsPanes to activate it, it won’t be on by default.

And meanwhile, in order to do the Share Internet Connection thingie, you definitely want the 10.3.x box to be the primary internet client since 10.1 doesn’t do internet sharing IIRC. Under 10.3, after you’re connected and have an IP addy, go to Sharing PrefsPane, click the rightmost tab, select Ethernet, and click the Start Sharing button. On the 10.1 box, see if DHCP will let you acquire an IP by assignment. If so, you’re golden.

[levdrakon]

@rjung

First off, I’d say to get off 10.1.5 and move up to 10.2 or better. My CRT iMac (450MHz slot-loading) is running 10.3.3, and it’s a dream.

Assuming you upgrade to 10.2/10.3 and still have problems, you may want to check Apple’s networking tutorials here. This page covers the basics, and seems to reaffirm what you have tried.

Thanks for the reply rjung, if the problem is my using 10.1.5 then I won’t be able to solve the problem today, but hopefully soon. It’s becoming increasingly obvious no one likes 10.1.5 anymore. It’s encouraging to know 10.3 runs well on your machine. I was worried it might be too much for a G3. When you installed 10.3, did you install it over your old system, or do a clean install? I’ll read the articles too.

[rjung]

I installed it over my old (10.2) system, using the “Archive and install” option, which saves your previous OS in an archive folder, then installs a new version of the OS anyway. Safest and hassle-free way to do it, IMO.

For whatever it’s worth, I’m running an iMac DV+ with a 450MHz G3 and 384 MB of RAM. I don’t have a problem with most day-to-day activities, though editing massive images in Photoshops takes a little while. iPhoto 3 is also a bit of a dog, but that’s true for everyone, and I hear iPhoto 4 is much better.

If you are content with running 10.1.5 on your current setup, you should be pleased with running 10.3 – Apple’s OS upgrades actually get faster than their predecessors.

[AHunter3]

levdrakon:

I was worried it might be too much for a G3. When you installed 10.3, did you install it over your old system, or do a clean install? I’ll read the articles too.

rjung:

If you are content with running 10.1.5 on your current setup, you should be pleased with running 10.3 – Apple’s OS upgrades actually get faster than their predecessors

I’ll vouch for that. I ran 10.1.5 for a very long time (practically boycotting Jaguar, not installing it until a month before Panther was released), at first because it broke a lot of application s and system modifications, then because I had a lot of time and energy invested in the X11 (XFree86) environment and the sendmail setup and because I spend most of my time in FileMaker, which has problems with Jaguar.

The speed of 10.2.8 compared to 10.1.5 is downright breathtaking, and if anything the older the computer the more impressive the difference; and 10.3.3 is faster yet although not quite as dramatically so.

[levdrakon]

@AHunter3

First off, sharing an internet connection is not the same thing as sharing a folder for purposes of copying files back and forth. The latter can be arranged without an internet connection anywhere in sight as long as you’ve got the wires.

Thanks for the reply AHunter3, I did try directly connecting the two computers with a crossover cable for the purposes of simply transferring files, and also just to see if it would work as that seems to be the simplest and most straightforward network. The computers still didn’t see each other.

Second, sharing under MacOS X is indeed a mass of unnecessarily complicated spaghetti compared to sharing under everything between System 7 and MacOS 9. You may prefer the additional flexibility provided by freeware System PrefsPane “SharePoints”, which makes it a lot more explicit what it is that you’re sharing and with whom and how, but even with SharePoints, file sharing under MacOS X is a tangle of messy spaghetti.

Never heard of SharePoints, I’ll have to look it up.

By far the easiest thing to so is to give the guest-person an administrative account (username and pw with admin privs). If there is sufficient mutual trust to go that route, you can each mount the entirety of all of the volumes of the other’s computer without lots of permissions hassles. (At least with no more than OS X would impose on you if you were sitting at the remote machine). Also easy is sharing your default shares (using the built-in file sharing) or other resouces (using SharePoints) as read-only.

That kinda confuses me. When I first tried this and my computer was able to see the other, when I clicked on his computer in the “connect to server” dialogue, it came back with the option to supply a username & password or connect as guest. Since I haven’t set up any users on either computer, I tried guest, at which point it said “no volumes to mount” or something. Frankly, I have no idea how to set up a username & password so someone can connect with me over a network. I’ve looked all over and don’t see the option. Is it like setting up an additional user that would be using my computer? You know, not over a network, but as if I had more than one person using my computer and I wanted them to have their own username in order to restrict what programs/files etc. they have access to?

(Trying to share a resource outside of ~/ as other than read-only without sharing your entire directory structure to them is one of the bigger challenges, one that has prompted more than one curmudgeonly rant on my part about Apple screwing up things that used to work just fine. I’ve about decided that the easiest way to have granular and reliable file sharing control under OS X is to install DAVE on both boxes and use the DAVE implementation of SMB)

You go me here. I’ve heard of Dave but never used it. What’s SMB?

Now, if you aren’t sharing an internet connection, you’ll want to use AppleTalk, the old plain-vanilla version that doesn’t have to piggyback over TCP/IP in order to work. Both 10.1 and 10.3 have it, but you may need to dig around in the Sharing and Network PrefsPanes to activate it, it won’t be on by default.

I do know how to turn both of these on, and did. No effect, apparently.

And meanwhile, in order to do the Share Internet Connection thingie, you definitely want the 10.3.x box to be the primary internet client since 10.1 doesn’t do internet sharing IIRC. Under 10.3, after you’re connected and have an IP addy, go to Sharing PrefsPane, click the rightmost tab, select Ethernet, and click the Start Sharing button. On the 10.1 box, see if DHCP will let you acquire an IP by assignment. If so, you’re golden.

As I have it now, we’re both sharing the internet and neither computer is acting as the internet client. I’m not sure why I would want one of the computers to do this, if it isn’t neccessary. Since my roommate’s PB is the 10.3 machine, I’d be hosed internet-wise everytime he turned off his PB, wouldn’t I? I’d certainly be hosed when he unplugs it and takes it with him to the coffee shop, etc.

[levdrakon]

@rjung

I installed it over my old (10.2) system, using the “Archive and install” option, which saves your previous OS in an archive folder, then installs a new version of the OS anyway. Safest and hassle-free way to do it, IMO.

For whatever it’s worth, I’m running an iMac DV+ with a 450MHz G3 and 384 MB of RAM. I don’t have a problem with most day-to-day activities, though editing massive images in Photoshops takes a little while. iPhoto 3 is also a bit of a dog, but that’s true for everyone, and I hear iPhoto 4 is much better.

If you are content with running 10.1.5 on your current setup, you should be pleased with running 10.3 – Apple’s OS upgrades actually get faster than their predecessors.

rjung and AHunter3,

Ok, you’ve both got me excited to get Panther. I’m used to OS upgrades leading to CPU slowdowns and RAM upgrades, but if what you say is true, then my computer could probably use the upgrade to Panther. Last night I went on eBay and bid on it. We’ll see how it goes.

In the meantime, I still want to work out this networking thing. If nothing else, I’ll learn a few things.

[AHunter3]

levdrakon:

When I first tried this and my computer was able to see the other, when I clicked on his computer in the “connect to server” dialogue, it came back with the option to supply a username & password or connect as guest. Since I haven’t set up any users on either computer, I tried guest, at which point it said “no volumes to mount” or something. Frankly, I have no idea how to set up a username & password so someone can connect with me over a network. I’ve looked all over and don’t see the option. Is it like setting up an additional user that would be using my computer? You know, not over a network, but as if I had more than one person using my computer and I wanted them to have their own username in order to restrict what programs/files etc. they have access to?

Under MacOS X, you need a username and password just to use the computer, remember? Well, the same username and password entered from the other computer when you’re doing the “Connect to Server” thing will let you select volumes to mount on your Desktop. If you use an Administrative username and pw, you can mount the whole directory structure. If you use a lower-echelon (non-admin) username and pw, you only mount that user’s home folder, plus the “drop box” folder of other users.

(quoting me):

(Trying to share a resource outside of ~/ as other than read-only without sharing your entire directory structure to them is one of the bigger challenges, one that has prompted more than one curmudgeonly rant on my part about Apple screwing up things that used to work just fine. I’ve about decided that the easiest way to have granular and reliable file sharing control under OS X is to install DAVE on both boxes and use the DAVE implementation of SMB)

You go me here. I’ve heard of Dave but never used it. What’s SMB?

SMB is the same as “Windows Networking”, the Artist Formerly Known as NetBIOS over TCP/IP. DAVE is the commercial add-on that’s been around since MacOS 8 to give NetBIOS capabilities to Mac users. Beginning with MacOS X 10.2, Macs have supported this protocol natively, but DAVE gives (or at least used to give) you more granular control: Select a volume or folder, indicate that you’re sharing it, and then specialize how you’re sharing it.

(quoting me again)

Now, if you aren’t sharing an internet connection, you’ll want to use AppleTalk, the old plain-vanilla version that doesn’t have to piggyback over TCP/IP in order to work. Both 10.1 and 10.3 have it, but you may need to dig around in the Sharing and Network PrefsPanes to activate it, it won’t be on by default.

I do know how to turn both of these on, and did. No effect, apparently.

Turning on AppleTalk is necessary but not sufficient. You still need to set up shares. You can’t “connect as a guest” and actually get access to anything unless you’ve set up shares to be accessible to guests. Otherwise you need to log on as a known user, as I described above.

(quoting me again):

And meanwhile, in order to do the Share Internet Connection thingie, you definitely want the 10.3.x box to be the primary internet client since 10.1 doesn’t do internet sharing IIRC. Under 10.3, after you’re connected and have an IP addy, go to Sharing PrefsPane, click the rightmost tab, select Ethernet, and click the Start Sharing button. On the 10.1 box, see if DHCP will let you acquire an IP by assignment. If so, you’re golden.

As I have it now, we’re both sharing the internet and neither computer is acting as the internet client.

Then you don’t need “internet sharing”, you’ve got both boxes online independently, probably by using a router or a hub. Internet sharing lets you piggyback another computer onto your live internet connection if you don’t have a hub or for other reasons can’t directly connect both computers at the same time (e.g., if you were on a dialup connection with just one phone line). The way you’re doing it is better – let each computer make its own independent connection.

[beagledave]

A good reference for Mac networking is the Three Macs website.

Welcome to Threemacs.com, a website that explains Macintosh networking in plain English, intended for all levels of Mac experience. The focus is on small networks (up to ten Macs or so), covering network concepts, setup instructions, and troubleshooting. Where appropriate, pictures and references accompany the instructions to ease in comprehension.

[levdrakon]

Success! Well, sorta mostly success. I did some dinking around last night and unfortunately, I don’t remember what setting I changed but I’m now able to see my roommate’s PB from my iMac again. So instead of trying to log in as “guest” I logged in as my roommate. Actually, I did go and set a user & password for myself on his computer too, but figured “heck, I’m the administrator of this little network, so why should I limit myself?”

I was able to log in to his computer and everything works. Cool.

So now we are sharing internet via the hub, and I’m networked with his computer via the hub. The next question is, why can’t his computer see my iMac via the network? I set my roommate up with an account on my computer, but until his PB can see my iMac, that’s a bit moot.

beagledave, thanks for the link to Threemacs. It’s an excellent website. I came across it before in my networking search. The thing is, I’ve followed the networking directions that come with my Mac, the directions on Apple’s website, and the directions on Threemacs. They all have great instructions for setting up a network based on how it should work, it just hasn’t worked that well for me so far. Prolly because I’m trying to use a cheap old hub to do it, or maybe because 10.1.5 is a naughty little OS. Maybe just operator headspace on my part. Not sure.

But we’re making progress!

AHunter3, sorry, didn’t mean to sound dumb. I do know how to set up a user account on my computer, just didn’t realize you had to do that for people on the network, too. I thought “guest” would give someone access to at least my shared public folder. Now when you say Appletalk isn’t sufficient, and I need to set up shares, I’m not sure what you mean. If I do a command+I on my public shared folder and grant access to either a specific user, or pretty much everybody, is that what you mean?

But until I can get my roommate’s computer to see mine, that won’t be an issue.

[JasonFin]

@levdrakon

But until I can get my roommate’s computer to see mine, that won’t be an issue.

If you’re having trouble seeing the other computer over AppleTalk, you can try connecting over TCP/IP. I think that’s always an option under OS X’s implementation of file sharing. You should be able to access the other Mac by entering its IP address in the Connect to Server dialog. (You may need to precede it with “afp://”) You can find out your IP address in the Network preference pane.

Also, I think it’s likely installing OS 10.3 will resolve this issue. It uses a system called “Rendezvous” where each Mac essentially advertises what services it has available over the network. In my experience, this works very well; 10.3 systems on the same local network manage to locate each other much more reliably than was the case under previous versions of OS X.

[AHunter3]

AHunter3, sorry, didn’t mean to sound dumb. I do know how to set up a user account on my computer, just didn’t realize you had to do that for people on the network, too. I thought “guest” would give someone access to at least my shared public folder. Now when you say Appletalk isn’t sufficient, and I need to set up shares, I’m not sure what you mean. If I do a command+I on my public shared folder and grant access to either a specific user, or pretty much everybody, is that what you mean?

Yeah, under Panther (10.3.x), it’s under the “details” sub-area of Ownership and Permissions (I think it was set up slightly differently in earlier versions); if you don’t indicate that unnamed “Others” have some kind of access (at least read only), they don’t.

[levdrakon]

@JasonFin

If you’re having trouble seeing the other computer over AppleTalk, you can try connecting over TCP/IP. I think that’s always an option under OS X’s implementation of file sharing. You should be able to access the other Mac by entering its IP address in the Connect to Server dialog. (You may need to precede it with “afp://”) You can find out your IP address in the Network preference pane.

I tried that and got “no response from server.”

Also I’m curious about my wiring. I have the cable modem going into the main port on the hub, my computer in the second port and my roommate’s PB into the third port. What would happen if I plugged my computer into the main port on the hub, and the cable modem into the second port?