Aww, I meant to get in on this one. And no subs means that following along unspoiled has no benefits. Can I be spoiled, Pleo?
Mentioning or agreeing publicly != “pushing”. Everyone has blind spots, especially new players. Talking about possibilities gives players the opportunity to consider things they may not have already considered. See previous post about keeping the option in mind to not immediately jump to suspicion because someone thinks about the game differently. ColdPhoenix seems to be opting out of that and seems content to interpret discussion as vigorous advocacy and start throwing around suspicion right away. I can turn that back on him in an OMGUS manner, or I can just note it and see where he goes with it and how people react. At this point I’m choosing to do the later.
Is there anyone new besides me? Just curious. (And speaking of newbieness – what is OMGUS?)
I’m at a disadvantage here, not knowing any of you. From experience elsewhere, it’s clear that while some people might often bring things up merely for discussion, others tend to always have a hidden agenda. I’m very much the former sort, but I think the latter are the better players. So if I seem to ascribe motives to you where there were none, take it as a compliment.
Regarding Darth Sensitive’s vote: is that an uncommon restriction to put on jailed Scum around here? It’s hard for me to judge the magnitude of the mistake without knowing that. But still – one accusation might be brushed off, but two should draw a real response, so I
vote Scuba Ben.
Quoth Normal Phase:
Follow the logic through to its conclusion. If it makes sense not to lynch on Day 1, then where are we on Day 2? The same place as Day 1, except with one less Townie. If we didn’t have a basis for choosing a lynch victim on Day 1, then how are we supposed to pick one Day 2? Obviously, if we’re going to win this game, then we’ll need to start lynching eventually: Why not now?
Quoth Darth Sensitive:
Even if imprisoned muties can still take part in their secret discussions, what’s the harm in that, really? Scuba’s point stands: If we get to a point where our Captain and Security Officer are trusted, and we can kill or imprison everyone we don’t trust before they can kill us, then we could stop the Night-kills:
Once we’ve stopped the killing, then we can just take our time with tying up the loose ends. It’s a valid endgame scenario.
OMGUS = Oh My God, You Suck! = Voting somebody because they voted for you, or similar
Chronos - That’s a valid endgame scenario, as it doubles our rate of removing possible scum from the game (well the voting/acting part). Slow though, as only one person can be locked up daily.
Here I go arguing this when I’ve already voted for someone, but …
If there is any time not to lynch, it is Day 1 – there is less information to go on, less information to be gained, and typically worse odds for the Town, than there will be at any subsequent point. And on a hypothetical last day, when it’s a matter of lynch the right person or lose, then of course it’s utterly nonsensical not to lynch.
Where do you draw the line? Somewhere in the middle, of course.
I do prefer a healthy amount of voting on Day 1, though. I won’t look kindly on anyone trying to stifle that.
Quite a bit to read there.
If we get trusted people in there. How can we be sure? I guess the doctor will help.
I think the doctor and engineer can cause more damage to town than the captain or security. Neither the captain nor security has the power by themselves to throw someone in the brig. Also, someone in the brig is still alive, and we have people to spare at the moment.
I don’t (at the moment) intend to order any arrests in day 1 as I don’t have strong enough suspicions. The two info roles could do a lot of longer term damage by issuing misinformation.
That said, I’m quite happy to be checked out as I’m town. I’d just prefer the examination was on XO, doctor or engineer as I see them as more powerful.
I would completely agree that it’s either 2 or 3. Don’t know which is more likely, I wouldn’t put too much weight on the plural “comrades” as that was written when we may have had 15 players.
I’d rather see the examination first and discuss then. It just seems risky potentially giving perfect information to scum at such an early stage. We may not even have power roles as the officer positions kind of provide that anyway?
Fair enough. I don’t mean to stifle discussion.
Yeah, never played before in my life. In fact never even heard of the game until I followed the recent Lost game.
Finally:
I don’t have strong enough suspicions to order any arrests but I do think it is better to lynch than no lynch (it gives us more info, we may hit scum, and it’s better than sitting tight while scum pick us off). If we’re going to lynch then I’d rather influence the votes to where I think the most (admittedly weak) suspicion is in my opinion.
Vote Chronos
Vote Cookies
Speaking of stifling discussion, I’d like to add another line of suspicion against Scuba Ben. I hadn’t really internalized it yesterday, but I just realized that his voting for everyone effectively enforces “no lynch” all by himself, due to the majority requirement.
Whatever my feelings about failing to lynch in general, I feel that such a unilateral move, so early in the first day, can only be a bad thing for the Town, as it effectively removes all pressure from the Scum. If that was not Scuba Ben’s intention, he should change his vote immediately.
I didn’t even follow that one; hence my ignorance of all the usual acronyms and idiosyncratic terminology. It was just “Ooh, they do Mafia here? Sign me up!”.
headbbs I’ve been trying to post this for about an hour and a half now…
Given my past Mafiascum playing, that’s the only way I could be certain of voting to lynch Scum. Plus, it’s a rule I’ve never played with and I wanted to experiment.
Oh, I’ve had plenty of simple (and complex) misunderstandings before. But I think you’re right, that Mutineers in the Brig might be able to take part in night discussions. Even so, it’s clear that if we throw all the Mutineers in the Brig, they can’t space any Loyal crewbies.
That’s the trick, isn’t it? It seems to be important that we get a confirmed Loyal crew member in the Ship’s Doc position, then in XO and Security (and by extension Engineer)… by which point that’s four confirmed Loyal, and the game ought to be ready to be wrapped up and shipped home.
It takes 6 votes to lynch someone – we’re under the rule of “greatest majority”, not “strict plurality.” My voting for everyone makes a lynch more likely; I don’t see how my Vote * enforces a no lynch situation.
But I should retract at least some of my voting.
Unvote Scuba Ben Of course I don’t want to lynch myself 
Who else would like for me to unvote them? And how do I know you speak truly about whose side you’re on? 
Day One Current Vote Count
10 players outside the Brig => 6 votes to lynch.
Scuba_Ben (2): [del]Scuba_Ben [70-89][/del], Darth Sensitive [79], Normal Phase [83]
Chronos (2): Scuba_Ben [70], ColdPhoenix [87]
ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (2): Scuba_Ben [70], ColdPhoenix [87]
ColdPhoenix (1): Scuba_Ben [70]
Normal Phase (1): Scuba_Ben [70]
Ichini Sanshigo (1): Scuba_Ben [70]
Inner Stickler (1): Scuba_Ben [70]
DiggitCamara (1): Scuba_Ben [70]
Hal Briston (1): Scuba_Ben [70]
Darth Sensitive (1): Scuba_Ben [70]
Rules Clarification:
Since it wasn’t completely clear, we’re using the approval method of voting, with the extra condition that the “winner” must have more than half the players voting for them.
So, ToDay, with no one in the Brig, we have 10 players. That means it takes 6 votes to space someone. If more than one player has at least 6 votes, the player with the highest number is spaced. If there’s a tied number of votes, the tie is broken by the voters’ ranks. If there’s still a tie, no lynch will take place.
I’ll indicate in the vote counts who would be lynched if the votes didn’t change (it’s no lynch currently). I’ll try to post a vote count each morning, and maybe more frequently on the last day of the Day.
Well, that’s embarrassing. Ignore my post #88, then.
This is probably my last vote before my out-of-town friend shows up (his flight was delayed), so I’d better get in a vote now. In 79, Darth Sensitive votes for Scuba_Ben for his “dangerous assumption” that Scum in the Brig can’t take part in their night discussion. In 84, I point out that that assumption isn’t really all that dangerous, and doesn’t change the endgame plan that Scuba put forth. Then, in 85, Darth agrees that that’s a valid endgame scenario, but doesn’t unvote Scuba, even though it looks to me like the reason for the vote is removed. For this reason, I will
Vote Darth Sensitive.
This also casts some suspicion on Normal_Phase, who appears to have voted for Scuba for the same reason, but Normal_Phase didn’t come back to comment on Scuba’s endgame scenario, so I think he looks a little less suspicious. Plus, I think I should be applying a slightly higher standard of evidence for votes on officers. So I won’t vote Normal just yet.
ColdPhoenix, good point about the sample PMs being written when the number of players was still unknown. I don’t think we can draw any conclusions from the phrasing, then. So 2 or 3 look about equally plausible to me, now.
In that same post, though, ColdPhoenix, you vote for both me and Cookies, with only a very vague reason (that we look most suspicious). Would you care to elaborate?
To ColdPhoenix, Scuba_Ben, and anyone else who might choose to vote for me, I say that I think it’s a mistake to vote for the current Doctor, whomever that is, without overwhelming evidence. ToDay, I’ll make an examination, and if I live through the Night, I’ll give the Town information. Even if I’m Scum (which I’m not, but of course you don’t know that, and anyway the next Doctor might be), I would still have to provide information: Either I tell the truth about whomever I investigate, in which case the information gain is clear, or I lie and run the risk that my lie will be discovered. Killing the current Doctor therefore denies Town information, and we need all the information we can get. If, toMorrow, I’m no longer doctor (if someone above me gets killed or Brigged, or if the XO moves me around, or if I’m brigged, or whatever), then make your case against me then (and afford the same courtesy to whomever the new Doctor is).
Finally, I think that we have the best chance of nailing Scum if everyone casts as many votes as there are Scum left in the game, so I intend to cast another vote or two before the end of the Day, if I see anything else suspicious. But that might come fairly late, if I don’t get a chance to read much before then.
That is a good reason. Unvote Chronos
But if we lose an Officer, I hope there’s something better to go on Tomorrow than a possible breadcrumb. (I never did read the Lost Forbidden Thread far enough to see AllWalker’s after-action report.)
Come Tomorrow I plan to have reasoned votes. For Today, I’ll be satisfied with reasoned unvotes.
And yet you seem to be dismissive of the possibility of hidden roles, ColdPhoenix? I think I’ve seen enough of where you are going with your play, and it doesn’t seem to be anywhere good.
Vote ColdPhoenix
There’s also the trail of information that lynching leaves (who voted, who they voted for and when, and so on)
Right now, the most important point is: scum know each other. Town don’t. Scum have an advantage in information, Town have an advantage in numbers. We have to sacrifice some of our advantage (which would get whittled down anyway) to diminish the Scum’s advantage.
Chivalrous of you, especially when it also applies to yourself.
I’ll point out first that Scuba Ben’s endgame scenario and his potentially knowing something we don’t (or implying something false) about Scum restrictions are two separate issues. His delineation of a potential endgame scenario is simple logic, something any Scum should be happy to point out just to gain some points for being sensible. Making sense on the one issue does not preclude the other being suspicious, and it’s nonsensical to accuse Darth Sensitive on those grounds.
I’ll also note that your own assessment of that comment as not being all that dangerous doesn’t really address the heart of my own objection to it – whether he meant to or not, Scuba Ben has given the impression that he may know something about the Scum that is not in evidence in the game description. And Scuba Ben himself, while addressing every single other one of Darth Sensitive’s points, did not address that one.
My vote on him stands. Due to your defense of him on facile grounds and your potential encouragement of hidden role claims from earlier, I would also like to add you.
But this puts me in a difficult position. You are absolutely correct when you point out that the Doctor’s information should be protected, despite that I think you seriously downplay the damage a Scum doctor could do. Self serving though it is once more for you to point out that the doctor should not be spaced, you are correct about it, provided the doctor in question has already given his examination order (or still retains the ability to).
Since you haven’t, there is another longshot option – our Captain and Security Officer could put you in the brig, and let Cookies give the examination order. I have no idea if the two of them would be willing; I’m guessing probably not.
So my hands are tied. I’d use my own power to demote you, then vote for you, but it doesn’t take effect until after the spacing (hence after your examination order), hence would be of no use in this instance. I’d use it anyway, to at least remove you for tomorrow, except that you’d be decent odds to be promoted right back into the Doctor position after the night anyway. Awkward, that.
Clarify this, please. I’m not seeing the logic.
Agreed; I don’t dispute that. But failure to lynch does not in itself remove all information value from the day; it only does that if there’s never any chance someone will actually die. So far, the day does not appear to be shaping up like that, but I would like some more people to speak up to ensure that it doesn’t. Several of you have yet to say anything very substantive, and Hal Briston hasn’t posted at all.
Normal Phase, was this the part you refer to?
One of us is certainly wrong about whether Mutineers in the Brig can or cannot discuss their Night-Spacing Kill. Given my history with Mafia, I am more likely to be wrong than you.
But the rules appear pretty clear: Mutineers in the Brig cannot participate in the Spacing. So if all Mutineers wind up in the Brig, then there will be no Night Kill. QED, Selah, E pleb nista.
Yes, that was the part I was referring to. I’m not off to a very good start on accuracy of recall, am I? Anyway, the vote still stands, for the original reason.
My suspicions were aroused by you both wanting town power roles to tell the engineer who they are. I think that’s risky as if the engineer is scum then it will be very damaging for town. In fact I think the risks outweigh the benefits so it seems scummy and if you are scum then taking out one of the top 3 officers in the first night would place you in that position.
As Cookies then agreed with that startegy he seemed dodgy too and I realised that if you were both scum then you’d be in a very strong position by getting people to do that and then moving yourselves to engineer and doctor.
That all might be a stretch but at this stage it’s all I’ve got.
What you say about the doctor is true though. You are more likely town than scum so it is useful to keep you (as doctor) alive.
**Unvote Chronos
**
The results of the medical: “After your analysis, at the end the Day, you will learn whether or not that crew-member is loyal or mutinous.”
I’m assuming the doctor can’t tell us the result at night as ““Strategy” posts are only permitted during the Day” but if the person who ordered the medical is alive but no longer the doctor will they receive the results?
Am tempted to issue an arrest warrant for Chronos if that’s the case.
I think dismissive is probably a strong way to describe my comment. I wasn’t sure that there would be but as you showed with the highlighted quotes, there probably are power roles.
The Scuba Ben potential slip is making me think. I’ll see what happens but may be sending a vote that way too.