I’m at work, so I tend to post from my blackberry, then drop it, so my double-posts tend to be ridiculous amounts of time apart. Hell, this post took me ten minutes to compose (with a phone call in the middle).
Based on gut feeling alone, I’d definetly vote for RoOsh. Nothing personal, just that the way zuma posted was scummy, even for him. And I can’t see him dropping (which is almost certianly what he did, no posts is almost certianly on purpose) if he was on the winning side (I believe town was winning at that point), so he was probably scum. And I think it would be a great scum strategy for scum to completly ride on a townie’s case, while acting humble and saying ‘you should ignore us, we’re unknowns’ because you know that we will pay attention.
I’d analyze further…but my gut seems to be accurate so far:
so I’ll
vote RoOsH
Now I guess maybe you guys see why it was so damn hard to build a case against me, eh?
I just looked back over your suspicion list, pedescribe, and you’re good. Holy crap, I hope we’re on the same team again next time!
So it’s 2 - 2. BlasterMaster hasn’t voted and I fully expect for Nanook to remained confirmedly silent. Before the lack of concensus yesterday BlasterMaster had his vote on bufftabby (based on my notes that have become increasingly incomprehensible). I know he stated he was doing a re-read and kind of wonder where his state of mind is at now. I did a cursory re-read and have some things I want to check out in more depth manana. But for now I am not changing my vote.
[Oog]GO SPURS GO[/oog]
Ouch, what am I chopped liver? :dubious:
My thoughts are- I dislike this method as a GameMod, as I dislike games that are settled in a “meta-gamy” fashion. However the onus is then on the GameMod to deal with those situations.
As a player however, I’m ALL for exploiting it. If there’s a loophole, it should be exploited and manipulated especially if it favors the Town.
A Townie Win: “By any means necessary” has been a rallying cry of mine in the off-board games, and I’m fine with it being used here, because again- the burden is on the MOD to make the game “unbreakable” or “player-proof”, if the mod lets such things exist, then he wanted us to take advantage of it.
So I’m all for the lynching of **Bufftabby **or myself, as there’s no way we can really f*ck this one up.
Though I have noted you guys haven’t exactly been going thru and analyzing posts like the old days- instead we have this loophole sorta thing- strikes me as the “lazy-man’s Mafia” if you will, and makes me want to go- “Why back in the OLD days, we didn’t HAVE loop holes like this! We had to go back and READ everything! You damn kids! Get off my lawn!”
Anyways, just checking in. And if you’re voting for me, Peeker, feel free to leave me any questions on my play, or on **Zuma **i guess, which I can’t really answer, but I can try to address if I have the time on Weds. But again, keep at it!
Whoops, didn’t mean to dismiss you like that. It’s just when I think of these games I use this board as my measuring stick. I forget that there is a whole big wide world out there outside of this happy little burg.
And my current vote is on bufftabby
Oh yeah!? Welcome to my world! :mad:
2 - bufftabby (RoOsh, peekercpa)
2 - RoOsh (bufftabby, pedescribe)
Try 1127 where you admit it, in your own words.
End of day four review. BlasterMaster all over bufftabby from posts 1109 on. All sound reasonable.
Still trying, although the crickets are encroaching.
Can I at leat get nachos if - am condemned to the purgatory of talking to myself that it would entail.
The piece of that post you must be speaking of (since you failed to quote it) must be
Right. That does not change the fact that no one has provided any cogent examples of an occasion when I’ve done this, and it has somehow proven detrimental to the Town.
It doesn’t much matter to me if you vote for me or not, Town can just win more quickly if you actually vote for the scum first, but I can take the hit first too. As long as we win, I’m 
I’ve already explained my reasoning. The worst I can find on bufftabby is that she exudes towniness, and it’s difficult to act like a townie no matter which side you’re on.
On the other hand, zuma was incredibly erattic in his posting (note that in YSI he was coherent enough to be a great asset to the town mid-game), and he quit while town was winning (something I find unlikely if he was town), also, you are incredibly prolific while telling us what to do, which sounds like what RyJae was doing (i.e. fine then, lynch me, but hear me out too!), and you’ve been pushing really hard at bufftabby, but always on the same two things (which has evolved into nit-picking and pedantary–not a good argument for town), and you strike me as scummy on a more basic level as well.
Do I really have to go back and read everything in order to have a valid opinion? I don’t think I do.
Well it only takes me longer than most (short busser and all). Recap: you don’t see anything wrong with snuggling, just that snuggling doesn’t equal scummy. Right?
peeker,I haven’t seen any proof that I’ve done anything detrimental, or even a definition of snuggling so much. My fluiddruid snuggle is the only real example I can think of, and I just don’t see how I’ve done anthing weong.
I don’t see how snuggling in the context that I’ve apparently done it is scummy. I haven’t made any lists of “here’s who I think is town” or anything, and I haven’t seen any other examples. If somebody can demonstrate to me what I’ve done that is so wrong, I’ll be happy to admit that I’ve done so, and not do so in the future. I’m not going to just stop doing something because somebody says I should, without any cogent examples or explanation. And hell, I find quotes and cites exclusively via my blackberry, and I really did ride the shortbus in the past.
Okay, since there’s so much discussion about it, what is smuggling? Why is it bad? I’ve heard about it in a few other games, but every time I look to the general area in question (snuggle-specific posts are almost never cited) all I see is earnest discussion. So why is it such a scum tell?
My Lazy-Man’s quote was more in general to the way this game has gone over vs. the Games of old, where you had players compiling HUGE amounts of Data and dumping them. It wasn’t a jib at you or anyone else, simply an observation on how the style’s sorta changed (partly because we’ve got an out in the Nanook loophole, so that’s also helpful to this whole she-bang).
As for Zuma- he didn’t “Quit”, he simply stopped playing due to real life issues, and obviously no one noticed him gone for about 2 weeks or so. It was Sach’s frustration that led to me being here, not **Zuma **EVER Subbing out or requesting a Sub to my knowledge.
I had to MOD-Replace Zuma, it was a Moderator action, and not one due to him EVER quitting or giving me consent to take over his player. **Sach **told me he needed someone to take over, and I volunteered to help out. That’s about it.
And yes, I am Bossy in these games. Mostly because I see it as a chance of teaching you guys more about the game, as there have been sloppier styles, so I like to try to point out those things whenever I see fit.
FIRST OFF: Snuggling is NOT a Scum tell.
It’s simply UNHELPFUL. And that leads it to being ANTI-Town. There is a HUGE Difference between unhelpful and scum tell.
The key example is I believe from Mafia II AKA Storyteller the Godfather.
In that, what basically happens, is the Townies began to create “trust lists” of who they trusted and in what order. This led to lots of useless odd data, and lots of arguments ("Why do you think I’m scummier than X!?!, etc). And basically what it did, was allow the Scum to just create simple easy lists or say “hey, I don’t believe in such lists” but then let the CROWD drown them out.
Then, what they would do is during the Night, they could EASILY see who trusted who- so the players that had Scum higher up on the lists, could be spared for a day or two. And someone who “REALLY distrusted” someone, well they could easily be killed off and you can then Frame the person with said trust list. It’s a VERY weak argument, but it’s still doable (*note: for example: see the Bufftabby argument on why **Shadowfacts **was killed- it’s as simple as that). Basically though what it does is create WIFOM. Which is what Scum want- to create as much WIFOM as possible and then to sit back and watch the Townies attack each other. And that’s what basically happened in M2: The ClusterFuck of epic proportions. And in it Storyteller gained MASSIVE townie cred by basically attacking 2 of his own teammates, and thus gaining momentum on everyones “he’s gotta be townie” radars.
That’s what’s bad: when you have actions that basically can be used for WIFOM.
This is what leads to my issues with Snuggling and Smudging.
Smudging its easier to see it’s negative effects, and it’s the more “obvious” of the two in its anti-towniness. A smudge is where one ‘slanders’ someone’s name by referring to their actions as suspicious or scummy, but then doesn’t follow it up with a vote. For example: see my Name dropping above of Bufftabby. If I wasn’t voting for her, but I just wanted to drop hints at her scummyness, it’s a valid action to do early in the game. The key is then to signal either to other scum to perhaps start to attack said person’s credibility (as its an easy way for scum to communicate during the day- they KNOW who’s scum and can look at those people’s posts more specifically), OR Better YET the goal is to have ANOTHER Player (Townie most likely) jump on the Smudgee, and try to have THEM START the bandwagon vs. the Smudgee. So that way, when the lynch occurs, the Scummy Smudger can easily vote at the end of the Day, and not get the majority of the suspicion “as he didn’t START the lynch”, but he did! Just not on the Record, the blame will go to the hapless townie that fell for the smudge and started up the lynch vs. another townie. Thusly, its a way the scum could easily knock back 2 Townie lynches back to back. Have some scum smudge a player, let a Townie create the lynch, other scum jump on the wagon, and then the NEXT Day, have other Scum who didn’t vote on the wagon lead a rail vs. the hapless townie that fell into the Trap.
That’s why you go back and look over the analysis- see who the KNOWN Scum (now with knowledge) were Smudging and Snuggling at the START of the game. It’s an EASY place to look for clues on suspicion and such.
That’s why SMUDGING is Anti-Town.
Snuggling is like the DEFENSIVE Version of that very same issue.
By Snuggling a Player, you basically try to create a sense of "towniess’ of yourself through false means. Smudging is done, and it gives a negative impression of the smudgee. Snuggling will give someone a POSTIVE impression of said player (the Snuggler).
So the key then, is to do 2 things with Snuggling:
-
Snuggle living players to gain their trust.
This can be done also in tandem with Busing Scum. -**Storyteller **in M2 was able to create an AURA of Mass Townie Credibility by doing so. Every action of his SEEMED SO Towny! And he always seemed to nail the scummy bastards, and he always trusted certain players- and those players then would get a vibe “Dude, this guy knows what he’s talking about- he’s nailed the scum, and he’s dead right on me! He must just be a really good player” That’s what led (in my opinion) to the downfall of the Town in that game, and since then it’s never really been replicated- as ever seen then NO ONE trusts the damn “townie trust lists” as it allows scum to EASILY hide in them by going along with other players, and just basically creates WIFOM for the actual scum to slip away from, while getting hapless players lynched. -
Snuggle up the Dead players in order to create an “aura” of towniness. This is basically trying to paint yourself as a more “helpful” and “smarter” townie. The way you do this is by little positive smudges- “I totally knew he was town” or “I had him marked as a townie! I knew it!” things like that said after a lynch or a dawn post.
Those players get IMMEDIATE suspicion by me, because they REEK of perfect knowledge.
Because this is a game of influencing people.
If you’re town [and NOT a power role, that’s a whole different ballgame], you don’t WANT to influence people- you want to find scum and lynch them. Your life is forfeit for the greater good. So if you die, you die. (However, others have pointed out that no one likes to die, so self-preservation attempts ARE a null tell, but I tend to dislike that, but whatever, I accept that others don’t play like me. So yeah, it’s a null tell if a townie tries to save his own arse during a lynch rather than go trying to leave as much information as possible by their death [For really failed examples of this: See WinstonSmith’s Playing during Mafia1, still one of my fav. moments of Anti-town Townie behavior] ).
If you’re scum however, you TOTALLY want to influence people. You WANT control of votes, you want to stay alive, and you want as many NON Scum to die before you die. So of course you want to paint yourself as a valuable person to keep alive.
That’s why I dislike snuggling.
Because WHY Snuggle if you’re Townie? (If you can give me a GOOD answer to that, then I will take my hatred of snuggling. Same with smudging- give me a GOOD Pro-TOWN Reason for why it’s okay to smudge others and I’ll consider dropping it as an anti-town behavior).
What’s your motivation in trying to preserve Your life over the greater good of the Town? The Town should come first, not the individual. So if I see a player who is trying to play selfishly or for keeps, THEY Should be one of the first to be lynched, as they’re acting in an ANTI-Town Manner.
But therein lies the Caveat*- the problem with trying to use these methods to detect scum is that players will try to introduce them early into the game, and try to get other players to use them. Example: The Trust lists from the previous games- what basically happened was WIFOM- the Lists themselves could have gone either way for each person, and it led a false evidence trail. The scum didn't even HAVE to really SAY ANYTHING, because the overzealous town basically tried to connect dots that didn't exist. All it takes is a well placed smudge or a such to start a domino effect of arguments and problems.
That's why I dislike "Anti-TOWN" behaviors. They're done by Scum and by Townies alike. Period. The key is though- Townies tend to realize that their behavior is problematic, and they'll put the idea of the TOWN over themselves. So they Stop with the actions once told to do so. However, Smart Scum will do the same thing to avoid attention as well. So basically a person who acts scummy, and then is told to knock it off- that could go either way.
The problem comes though when it comes to players who SUPPORT an idea even when told its unhelpful. That makes me curious as to WHY they'd do that.... because it's showing 2 mentalities to me:
1. They value themselves over the greater good of the Town. So their actions mean more then that which can help the Town. That to me is a selfish play, and it's anti-Town in my book. Not A SCUMTELL, but an "unhelpful" note. One that would come into play if I were a vig or such, as if I didn't have a good scum lead, then I'd try to take out the most "anti-town" players (Lurkers, random voters into the late game, excessive smudgers/snugglers, etc)
2. It also makes me then think: Could this person be Newbie Scum?
Because Playing scum is a tough thing to do, especially on your first few tries. You tend to get set into your ways, and freak out when forced to deviate from it. It takes a skilled player to usually worm their way out of a bad situation and turn it into a positive (See **Blastermaster/Zuma** in the offboard site -he was basically screwed there, but he was able to twist and turn to try and survive- a mark of an experienced player in my book).
But now, a newbie scum player- they're more likely to panic and STICK with their ways. They can't just come up with a new plan on the fly or they may be listening to a more experienced player calling the shots. So when I see a player who's relatively new- I have to consider that possibility as well. Examples of this: Well, in the last Mafia Game- the recruitment one- check out the Godfather's play in there. It basically fell upon his MINION to try to help him out there, but the Town was able to see through the ruse and take him out (I believe it was **Darth sensitive** and **Blaster **in that game as the scum pair Or was it **Hal **as the minion? I can't recall). But the point still stands- that a player who consciously supports an "unhelpful" attitude is definately warrented a second look for several reasons.
But the key is to try to figure it out: Are the Actions merely those of an unhelpful Anti-Town Townie who doesn't realize it? Or are they more malicious, and the actions of a Scummier player who is TRYING to influence players.
This is where **NAF **and others would be better suited at explaining with his theories of looking then at MOTIVATIONS of actions and not just the actions themselves, which is something I've got to learn myself from him.
/end my Lecture on Snuggling/Smudging
Any other Qs?Oh, and I’m back.
Wow. That’s probably the best thing you could have said in your defense. I’m seeing this game in a totally different light now.
Not to say that I could still have been right earlier, just that your-and-bufftabby’s argument looks completly different with the stakes established and the terms defined.
Okay guys, I’m doing a “full” re-read. Which, honestly, is a lot of skimming and focusing on our candidates. I’ve just read through Day One and have a few points I want to bring up about zuma and bufftabby.
zuma - Early lurking, but explains it. Makes a list of “experienced” players he’s willing to vote for which includes only one scum. Switches votes around a few times and ends up on Menocchio as “mostly” random.
bufftabby - A little bit of lurking and a lot a bit of irrelevant discussion. Puts a random vote on Menocchio that never moves. Very snuggly, particularly towards me.
All in all, not a good looking Day for either, but probably slightly more damning for bufftabby. I’m going to put my vote preliminarily on her until I’ve finished my re-read and seen enough to change my mind.
Vote bufftabby