Mafia The Game III: Kinder and Gentler

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

NAF

I just got to my hotel room after a long day of missed flights and death-by-powerpoint. But I’m catching up on the thread and shall make a real post before running off to dinner.

[Rachm_Qoch]

@dnooman

Would DiggitCamara and Rachm Qoch please state explicitly what they don’t agree with me about? Explicitly.

Is post #615 really that unclear?

@dnooman

<snip>
As unfortunate as it was that percypercy turned out to be town, I can’t really regret my vote because a quiet townie is bad for the town.
<snip>

1. Uhh, telegraphing strategy is bad, m’kay?

2. Uhh, Killing townies is bad, m’kay?

[Lightnin]

I’m inclined to think that a solid scumtell would be to never nominate, but to hop on the bandwagon against whomever isn’t scum.

Hmm… tortured sentence, that.

Basically, I don’t think the the initial voters matter much- I think the ones we should keep an eye on are the ones who said, “me too” and threw their vote only onto people who’ve already been voted. This way, the scum is able to look lily-white, but since they’re able to vote as a block (if they’re careful), they can protect each other by voting against someone they KNOW isn’t scum.

Hmm… still hard to verbalize.

I’m going to have to go over the entire thread… ouch… and see if anyone fits that criteria.

[fluiddruid]

@Rachm Qoch

1. Uhh, telegraphing strategy is bad, m’kay?

2. Uhh, Killing townies is bad, m’kay?

Why? I stated at the time of my vote, and I’ll say again now, when it comes to round one and the odds are against us, I’d rather take down a quiet/less contributory townie if necessary. Yes, it sucks, but we would have been pretty lucky to clue in perfectly.

Besides… why should we fear to share strategy? I don’t see a reason for townies to be secretive with one another (other than role claims / investigations, purely for the purposes of self-protection). If you die, you take it to the grave.

[dnooman]

@Idle Thoughts

That being said, she wasn’t the only one who was on two bandwagons at the time. One other person was, that person being you. You were the third person to vote for Lightnin’ after I did

So, I did the same thing you did, does that make me look shady?

[quote but when many others starting piling on him you (just like I did), changed your vote. [/quote]
Again, doing the same thing as you.

However, you (very unlike myself) just hopped on another pile-on with percypercy.

If you’re thinking I’m scum, would this make any sense for me to do? No. If I were scum I would have let the innocent townie wagon keep on rollin’ without my name on it. Scum would have known to keep away towards the end of that if they were smart. So are you accusing me of making a move that would have been dumb for scum to do, while you “very unlike myself” deftly avoided voting for a townie. Did you know she was town?

And THIS just a mere seven posts after you made this post where you all of say you’re happy with your vote (even if Lightnin’ is town (!!) ) and also “aim” your FOS at Projammer.

So, uh, whatever happened to Projammer then? Did, when you made post #495, he just completely slip your mind even though you had a FOS on him? Seems that way since you instead voted for percy.

So now I’m suspicious for who I don’t vote for? A person who’s role has yet to be revealed? The fact that percy was being quiet was a better reason than any other at the time to vote for anyone. Silent townies do not help the town.

And yeah, you did mention previous suspicions of percy (your post # 461). I even referred to this when I, myself, said percy was starting to look odd.

Then why didn’t you vote for her? Did you know she was town, and therefore knew to not vote for her needlessly?

But in between all of that saying things like you’re happy with your vote even in the case Lightnin’ is town (but oh so “sadly”) and seemingly to forget all about Projammer when you seemed so suspicious of him in the first place makes it all seem really shady.

I am being very open with my thoughts. Yes it seems callous to suggest that Lightnin’s death would have been a benefit to us in any way, but we would have learned a lot more had he been the one to get lynched than we did from percy. Remember the people defending Lightnin’? There was no one that defended percy because there was no good argument to make in her defense.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

@Rachm Qoch

A townie death is bad for the town, PERIOD. It could be (especially if we flat out tell them!) that the mafia expects us to lynch our less vocal friends early on – no doubt if they expect us to focus on the likes of percypercy during daytime, they’ll simply knock off the social butterflies at night and let us do half of their job for them. That might very well be what cost NAF his life.

A townie death is bad, but also illuminating. I also think you’re over-simplifying the anti-lurker strategy.

I’m tossing my hat in the ring with the folks who feel that the parties implicated in the early percypercy bandwagon are the most suspicious. Of that group, I’m looking the hardest at tirial, who’s posts strike me as a bit too diplomatic and calculated. Yes, it is difficult to sub into a game, but I get an odd feeling like he holds a knife behind his back while holding the door open for you.

[dnooman]

@Rachm Qoch

Is post #615 really that unclear?

1. Uhh, telegraphing strategy is bad, m’kay?

2. Uhh, Killing townies is bad, m’kay?

You managed to do it again.

You said “I disagree.”

Please fill in the blank in the following sentence: “I disagree that (this is where you quote my exact statement that you disagree with)” Do you disagree that I didn’t regret my vote? Do you disagree that silent townies are bad for the town?

Show me where I said killing townies is good. I can show you where I said that we might learn beneficial things from dead townies, but I didn’t say that I wanted to kill a townie.

Please also state what this strategy is that I’m telegraphing. Does it have to do with quiet townies? Please tell us your exact thoughts on this matter.

[Kyrie_Eleison]

@dnooman

Silent townies do not help the town.

You’ve said this twice now, although others have voiced their disagreement. At worst, silent townies help the town maintain a numerical advantage over its opponents.

[Idle_Thoughts]

@CaerieD

While I did give the last vote against percypercy and I regret that, I can’t see how I could have both jumped on a bandwagon and started it. I either started it or I jumped onto the bandwagon. Those are mutually exclusive claims. This is the same odd distortion of posts that you gave before that had me looking at you suspiciously.

You started it and then jumped on your own one, seemingly, as you were the first to point suspicion at Omi No Kami and right after you did both Rachm Qoch and Kyrie Eleison put in votes against him. You then decided to hop on too, that is, until percypercy’s number appeared to be up, in which you changed.

So, to me, THAT looks suspicious.

dnoorman:

Get in at least one scum vote? Scum that see a sinking ship are not likely to add their name to the list of people who helped sink it. All of the scum knew that percypercy was town, why would they want to be associated with killing a known townie when it was clear he was going to die anyways?

What makes you think they wouldn’t? I just pointed out, the chances
all six of the votes being town seems pretty far-fetched. And while I’m not saying they could have started the bandwagon (which they could have, by all means), it just seems more likely to my common sense factor that they’d try to avoid starting it and, instead, try to shoot for placing a vote in the middle or nearing the end when a pile-on is in full swing.

Yes I did, and I would have stayed happy with it had I not thought that he might be a mason and that his fellow masons were the ones defending him. Was I over thinking that potential scenario, probably. In retrospect, I think that if he were a mason headed for the gallows the other Masons would know enough to keep quiet until he was forced to claim. It never got that far, so we’ll see how that situation plays out.

Lightnin’s defenders were either a) townies that just thought he was making rookie blunders, b) masons foolishly outing themselves as a group unnecessarily, c) Mafia not wanting us to get one of their own killed before they had a chance to strategize, or d) a combination of the aforementioned people. Scenarios c and d make the most sense to me. Did I leave out a possible scenario? Besides one of them being a doc, detective, NW, etc.

You seem to contradict yourself a couple times in this thing. You say, at first, that you thought he was a mason and his fellow masons were the ones defending him. I say that’d be a pretty far and specific stretch. A bit of a hasty one too. Because, after all, you go on to say that it could have been A, B, C, or D also (in the same quote).

So it seems to me you were pretty hasty in assuming what you did that lead to your unvoting of Lightnin’. You automatically assumed that it JUST was the fact that other masons were defending him and nothing else, at all, sprung to mind as a possiblity? And after one or two other games you’ve already played in? I’d think you’d be experienced by now in opening your mind to all aveunes of possiblity.

So my suspicion stands. However not enough to vote for you just yet. Or anyone for that matter.

[CaerieD]

@Idle Thoughts

You started it and then jumped on your own one, seemingly, as you were the first to point suspicion at Omi No Kami and right after you did both Rachm Qoch and Kyrie Eleison put in votes against him. You then decided to hop on too, that is, until percypercy’s number appeared to be up, in which you changed.

So, to me, THAT looks suspicious.

I expressed suspicion against someone and, when others voiced similar suspicion, I voted against that person. Is this actually an unusual tactic? Perhaps one of those two was Mafia, trying to start a bandwagon, but I doubt it. Omni no Kami was acting suspiciously. It really feels like you’re reaching here.

[Idle_Thoughts]

@dnooman

So, I did the same thing you did, does that make me look shady?

Again, doing the same thing as you.

No, it doesn’t. I pointed out the fact I did these things as well. What differs from us is you seemed to not mind if you accidently killed off a townie (at first) and then changed your vote to another person (which turned out to be another bandwagon) when in your post seven posts before you do this, you FOS someone else. Just out of nowhere you change your vote it seems (well, based on, what you say, that fluiddruid’s points made sense).

If you’re thinking I’m scum, would this make any sense for me to do?

Yes, it would, seeing as how I already said I think the latter half of the votes would be the more apt to include scum.

So now I’m suspicious for who I don’t vote for? A person who’s role has yet to be revealed? The fact that percy was being quiet was a better reason than any other at the time to vote for anyone. Silent townies do not help the town.

I like how you’re twisting what I’m saying very subtly. This raises my suspicion even more.

I’m saying that with your FOS of Projammer and (in the same post) being very “happy” with your vote of Lightnin’, you abandoning both trails to jump on a bandwagon of votes for percy seven posts later looks odd.

Then why didn’t you vote for her? Did you know she was town, and therefore knew to not vote for her needlessly?

Because I wasn’t as suspicious of her as I was of others at the time.

I am being very open with my thoughts. Yes it seems callous to suggest that Lightnin’s death would have been a benefit to us in any way, but we would have learned a lot more had he been the one to get lynched than we did from percy. Remember the people defending Lightnin’? There was no one that defended percy because there was no good argument to make in her defense.

Then, by the same token of all of your questions fired at me, why did you change your vote in the first place?

[dnooman]

@Kyrie Eleison

You’ve said this twice now, although others have voiced their disagreement. At worst, silent townies help the town maintain a numerical advantage over its opponents.

Scum kills a silent townie…what do we learn? Nothing, zero information from a night kill. The last werewolf alive in WW1 was lurking big time throughout the entire game, had the town insisted on more input, they might have learned at least something about her. At worst silent townies provide no information to the town, the scum know that they’re town, they already have that information. Silent townies can only help the scum.

[Idle_Thoughts]

@CaerieD

I expressed suspicion against someone and, when others voiced similar suspicion, I voted against that person. Is this actually an unusual tactic? Perhaps one of those two was Mafia, trying to start a bandwagon, but I doubt it. Omni no Kami was acting suspiciously. It really feels like you’re reaching here.

Well, let me put it this way. Suppose you’re scum. Well then, nothing to debate, really. That means you’re lying and I’m hitting my mark.
Let’s say you’re town. Then you admit that you considered the first two (or one of them) COULD be Mafia and starting a bandwagon. Why so eager to cast your vote for him too, then?

Just seemed too easy, since he had fingered you (uh, maybe I better use a better term next time) and voted for you to just turn around and have a reason to vote for him back.

I dunno, but to me I didn’t sense any warning signals coming from ONK.

[Lightnin]

Going back over the entire thread (ow, my eyes!), I’m inclined to be suspicious of CaerieD, Hal Briston, and dnooman, simply due to their propensity for bandwagon hopping.

Of those, CaerieD seems to be the most quiet. The only one of those who didn’t vote for percypercy would be Hal Briston.

[Idle_Thoughts]

@dnooman

Scum kills a silent townie…what do we learn? Nothing, zero information from a night kill.

You seem to be implying here (with the way you worded things) that you think NO scum would put in a vote for someone as silent as percypercy was. But I’m saying that it wouldn’t take all of the scum to do it. I’m saying that, I’m betting, one or two (or as many as three) were possibly scum and helped it towards a lynch. And yes, I CAN see scum doing that. And I can see YOU being one of them.

And by the way, why would scum want to help us? You say if “[they] kill a silent townie…what do we learn? Nothing”

Well, that’s what they’d want to leave with us. No info at all.

I don’t see why it’s so implausible to you that some scum jumped on the bandwagon of percy’s death. Correct me if I’m wrong but then what are you stating?

[Idle_Thoughts]

I guess this is as good a time as any to say that I won’t be on at all tomorrow or the majority of Thursday.

The reason: I’m flying to New York tomorrow; leaving at about 11 and arriving about 5 pm their time and won’t have any net access when I get there.

Thursday, I’ll be out and about with my girlfriend and stuff and won’t be able to have a free moment to find a library or university until about 4:30 (PM) again.

I hate to miss all that time, especially not even being able to check up on it to see what new happenings are going on and (in some cases I’ve seen) having all the votes start to tally against those who haven’t shown their face for awhile (Probably because they’re easy pickens not being on to be able to defend themselves). I can only hope it’s the case here and, if it is, I’ll be back well before day ends to catch up and reply.
But anyway, have fun everyone, in the meantime. I’ll get back as soon as I can. It’ll be sometime Thursday, without a doubt.

[Idle_Thoughts]

NOT. :smack:

“Hope it’s NOT the case here.”

[tirial]

I hate being on GMT I’ve missed the day start (And I’m in front of my PC at 6:30 am)! For the record I’m a she.

Sorry Naf You will be missed. <puts flowers on grave>

We need to take a serious look at who derailed that bandwagon, and why, and who started and kept the percypercy bandwagon going.

Diggit and I voted for percypercy then a day later there were 4 extra votes (fluiddruid, dnooman, Blaster Master, CaerieD). However I will say that since NAF is confirmed town I am now suspicious of Lighnin’. If Lighnin was mafia, then forming another bandwagon would be a good way to protect him.
Lemur866 P486

But in order to head off the Lightning lynch, we’ve got to pick someone else, and that means bandwagoning on one of the people who have three votes already, compared to Lightning’s five.

Or for scum to create a bandwagon against someone with two votes…
dnooman

All of the scum knew that percypercy was town, why would they want to be associated with killing a known townie when it was clear he was going to die anyways?

To take pressure off Lightnin? When did the bandwagon form? It wasn’t likely percypercy could swing instead of Lightnin until post 502
Post 626

I’m looking the hardest at tirial, who’s posts strike me as a bit too diplomatic and calculated

I can understand why - problem is I’m reading the entire thread everytime I post any analysis, which is why my postcount is lower during the day, and its taken 40 minutes to write this. I voted for percypercy on Post 464 (04-22-2007, 08:59 AM ), Diggit voted for her in Post 370 (04-20-2007, 10:55 PM). In my defence, I will point out the voting pattern for the percypercy bandwagon (all times are BST):

Post 477 04-22-2007, 07:02 PM percypercy two votes. Lightnin’ three votes
P478 Millit votes Lightnin
P481 Snakescatlady votes Lightnin
P484/5 - I pointed out the Lightnin’ had quoted a mafia boss in his post
P490 Idle thoughts off Lighnin bandwagon.
P493 - Fluiddruid votes percypercy 04-23-2007 03:07 AM
P495 - dnooman votes percypercy
p496 - SnakesCatLady Off Lightnin bandwagon
P502 - Blastermaster votes percypercy (explaining why she is suspicious as scum)
P503 - I explain my reasoning (again) for my earlier vote P464.
P506 - CaerieD votes percypercy
P515 - Day ends 04-23-2007, 04:08 PM

I didn’t post while the percypercy bandwagon was forming. My posts(484/485) before that were pointing out that Lightnin had quoted a mafia boss in his post and that I thought it was too obvious.

On the other hand, percypercy had two days to defend Diggit’s vote and didn’t, and a day and a half to defend against mine, and didn’t. So even with twelve hours (approx) for her to defend against a bandwagon, later voters could be fairly certain that she wouldn’t defend herself, so the mafia a) knew she was town and b) knew from her previous behaviour she probably wouldn’t defend. An ideal target to take the pressure off one of your own.

And lemur866’s post 486 saying avoiding a Lightnin lynch would require another bandwagon comes shortly before fluiddruid’s vote for percypercy.

I’m not sure where I am going with this as at the momment everyone looks suspicious.

[Millit_the_Frail]

I’m just checking in. Sorry to see that NAF’s been offed. I guess the Mafia agree with whomever said that an experienced Mafia player is the town’s best asset. Or else NAF was a little too on to something. Hm.

Anyway, still suspicious of Lightnin’, for the same reasons as yesterday, and also because his bandwagon was so abruptly stopped in favor of lynching a now-confirmed townie. It would have been very easy for the scum to pile on after I broke the tie vote and went after him. But…they didn’t. I’m also suspicious of fluiddruid and dnooman for being right in the middle of the group who got percypercy lynched. The middle is an easy place for scum to be hiding…

[Omi_no_Kami]

As a general note I wanted to mention that I have finals this week, so I won’t be around nearly as much as I’d like. That having been said:
**
CaerieD**, Kyrie Eleison, and Rachm Qoch still look shady to me, I’m glad that other people agree… but I want to put in my two cents by advising that we hold off on anything big. There’s very little concrete evidence at this point, other than the mini-bandwagon and the slimy feel one gets talking to them…

That having been said, I would advocate keeping a close eye on the three of them, but this is so early in the game I think we’d be best served rooting out the lurkers, like others have mentioned. Voting patterns alone might not be the smoking gnu (yes, the wildebeest) we need, if the scum is sitting in the wings and sniping targets of opportunity when they arise, but they still help. So I think we should focus on sweating the quiet ones to see where it leads.