Mafia The Game III: Kinder and Gentler

[Omi_no_Kami]

@Rachm Qoch

It’s odd you say that, because that’s exactly what I suspected Omi no Kami of trying to do to both of us in post #768, where she casts aspersions on us. Which would make perfect sense if both she and Projammer are both Mafia. Omi no Kami is presently voteless – why not divert one or both of the more unsure votes against Projammer to herself, and let her buddy live another day?

Her peculiar posts notwithstanding, she puts out a vague townie vibe. I had backed off her earlier for this reason. But this post seems like it was meant to do the opposite.

I can see how you might mis-interpret that as an accusation (which it wasn’t), but I honestly can’t imagine how you would interpret that as an attempt to draw votes to myself. Someone asked me to clarify my worries about scum flying under the radar, and I mentioned both of you as “fairly conservative players”. It’s obvious that I was using your behavior to clarify the archetype I was trying to describe, but it’s easy to see that I never accused either of you of being scum, for the simple reason that I don’t have any clear evidence to this fact.

I see two ways to interpret this:

1. You’re interpreting that post as an accusation, in which case it seems like you’re assuming it’s acceptable for you to vote for me in retaliation (the aforementioned revenge vote; NOT a good move, since it’s a nomination based on antipathy, not suspicion).

2. Considering that this is the second time you’ve gone after me (the first being the CaerieD bit), and that this time you have absolutely no basis for your tactics, you’re scum and you’re trying to get me lynched in the daytime so you can use a night kill to off one of the heavy analyzers who isn’t likely to get killed during the day.

You seem like a reasonable person, and as such Occam’s razor is telling me that #2 is much more likely than #1.

FOS Rachm Qoch

[Omi_no_Kami]

Editing post:

“1) You’re interpreting that post as an accusation, in which case it seems like you’re assuming it’s acceptable for you to vote for me in retaliation (the aforementioned revenge vote; NOT a good move, since it’s a nomination based on antipathy, not suspicion).”

That first bit was supposed to read “You’re assuming** that I am under the assumption that** revenge votes are permissible”. Because I’m not; it helps nobody, and it doesn’t further anyone’s analysis.

[Kyrie_Eleison]

@dnooman

You were mentioned in that post, but it wasn’t a response to you. Re-read it if you must.

I have done so. My mistake; question withdrawn.

[Kyrie_Eleison]

Oh, and humbly suggest that you might want to make your antecedents more clear, especially when using ambiguous plurals. Good luck, you callous bastage. (Post is made with full knowledge that Johnny Dangerously allusions are scum tells. Spin the wheel and see where your own WIFOM needle lands.)

[CaerieD]

Damnit, people, don’t you ever sleep?

Okay, this sudden vote shifting has me very uneasy. Is it just a coincidence? Was Projammer that convincing? Or am I (and everyone else currently voting for dnooman) being used as a tool to off a townie?

I don’t know how active I’ll be able to be today, since it’s my niece’s prom and I may be called upon to chauffeur. While I hope to be back and be active throughout the day and figure this little turn of events out, I’ve got no guarantees. So, I’m unvoting dnooman for now and voting No Lynch. If I get a chance to come back I may change my mind, but I dislike the ship jumping from Projammer. It makes me less sure of dnooman’s scumminess now.

[Hal_Briston]

Ok, I’m going to have to make this quick (stealing a few minutes of SDMB time from an unexpected trip to the in-laws).

Still not buying what dnooman is selling. Not a bit of it. If I’m wrong about this, then I’ll be the first one to drink to his memory, but damnit, I’m sticking to my guns on this one.

As for Projammer’s role claim, what was the point? The only way the Do-Gooder is useful is if the scum don’t know who has that role. I can’t see any good reason for claiming that role. Why not claim vanilla town, and hope for the best? Hell, if you really are the Do-Gooder, then claim to be the detective and hope the scum do try and claim you, thereby wasting their recruitment.

I haven’t been one calling for Projammer to swing, but that just comes off as a very odd move to me.

Anyway, that’s my two-minute view of the past day. Hopefully I’ll get back on before the day ends, just in case.

[SnakesCatLady]

@dnooman

SnakesCatLady and tirial have shifted the vote towards me, with less than one real day remaining.

Indeed. How does changing the vote balance help the town? How exactly are you helping the town? You voted for the person that you thought was most likely scum, now what? If their role is not revealed tonight, what good have you done?

Kyrie followed your vote. What are we to make of that?

I’m going to assume that you’ll not answer each of these questions individually. You don’t like making guesses, and it seems you don’t like answering questions either.

Quite frankly, I could care less that my unvoting Projammer has shifted the vote to you. I am not going to vote for someone I don’t think is scum to save you, because I am not sure of you. I’m not sure enough to vote for you, but I’m not going to vote for someone else to save you.

How does changing the vote balance help the town? By stating that I am no longer sure enough of someone to vote for them, while still not being sure of them, I am hoping that others will look at the evidence and either not lynch an innocent person or convince me that I was right to begin with.

What are we to make of Kyrie Eleison following my vote? Uh, maybe that she agreed with my reasoning? How in the hell am I responsible for how someone else votes? I put my reasoning on the table, just like everyone else, and others are free to agree with it, disagree with it, or ignore it.

I don’t like “making guesses”? What in hell do you think I am doing? Are you insinuating that I have knowledge I shouldn’t have? I am using the contents of this thread to make my guesses. I am simply trying to have some reason behind my guesses, not just a shot in the dark or playing “follow the leader”. If you don’t like how I play the game, I hate it for you.

I have now done my best to answer your questions. My turn - I have a question for you, dnooman. How does voting for someone I am not sure of help the town? What kind of information does that leave them if I am on the Mafia’s menu for tonight?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

@Hal Briston

As for Projammer’s role claim, what was the point? The only way the Do-Gooder is useful is if the scum don’t know who has that role. I can’t see any good reason for claiming that role. Why not claim vanilla town, and hope for the best? Hell, if you really are the Do-Gooder, then claim to be the detective and hope the scum do try and claim you, thereby wasting their recruitment.

The boards have been timing out since I got up this morning, but as I sat here hitting refresh over and over, I was thinking the exact same thing. To claim Do-gooder, if true, is divulging information needlessly. There have been people posting that “all liars should swing”, but I find it hard to believe that a legit Do-gooder would be afraid of the consequences of not being 100% honest with a role claim, especially this early in the game. If the claim is false, but he is town, the lie doesn’t really gain the town anything. While the claim might bump Projammer down the list of potential scum recruits (if he is town), I’d wager that it hasn’t take him off their list completely.

My vote is staying where it is.

[tirial]

@dnooman

SnakesCatLady and tirial have shifted the vote towards me, with less than one real day remaining.

Right

1. I unvoted projammer because he has role-claimed. Depending on how events play out he may or may not be the best person to vote for, but I am no longer sure. Admittedly Projammer if you are a Do Gooder I think you were giving off such scummy vibes that the mafia wouldn’t recruit you - whatever you are, you’ve already had two bandwagons in two days.
2. He isn’t the person I am most suspicious of right now, but I am still putting a case together.

However, I don’t think we can get away with a no kill. Whether the mafia kill or recruit we will be down one townie tonight, and gain as little information as they can provide us with. To get useful information we need to lynch someone to confirm their role. I will place a vote when I have finished reading the thread, if I can find someone who is definitely scum.

By the way, you gave a definite impression that you wanted to die for the town earlier today. Why are you suddenly complaining that a shift in votes caused by another player’s roleclaim leaves you likely to do just that?

[Rachm_Qoch]

@Omi no Kami

I can see how you might mis-interpret that as an accusation (which it wasn’t), but I honestly can’t imagine how you would interpret that as an attempt to draw votes to myself. Someone asked me to clarify my worries about scum flying under the radar, and I mentioned both of you as “fairly conservative players”. It’s obvious that I was using your behavior to clarify the archetype I was trying to describe, but it’s easy to see that I never accused either of you of being scum, for the simple reason that I don’t have any clear evidence to this fact.

I see two ways to interpret this:

1. You’re interpreting that post as an accusation, in which case it seems like you’re assuming it’s acceptable for you to vote for me in retaliation (the aforementioned revenge vote; NOT a good move, since it’s a nomination based on antipathy, not suspicion).

2. Considering that this is the second time you’ve gone after me (the first being the CaerieD bit), and that this time you have absolutely no basis for your tactics, you’re scum and you’re trying to get me lynched in the daytime so you can use a night kill to off one of the heavy analyzers who isn’t likely to get killed during the day.

You seem like a reasonable person, and as such Occam’s razor is telling me that #2 is much more likely than #1.

FOS Rachm Qoch

OK, I’ll try to explain my further suspicion based on your more recent posts. For your benefit I’ll try to be as tactless as I can.

@Omi no Kami

“Death to lurkers!”…
<snip>
…can I ask if it’s a good idea to put the most scrutiny on people who’ve been participating heavily?..
<snip>
…why we aren’t putting more scrutiny on the ‘neutral’ players?

It’s good you’re narrowing things down a bit.

It’s much easier to avoid the scrutiny of any particular townie if you don’t target anyone specific, but just globally spread suspicion across the entire town, right?

@Omi no Kami

CaerieD’s been a lot more vocal recently and I’m trusting her a bit more, but Rachm Qoch and SnakesCatLady both stand out in my mind as being fairly conservative players; they’ll agree with current accusations, but I can’t remember either of them ever making a logical attack on anyone outside of day 1 when Caerie and I got into that dustup.

Logical? What logical attack had you made on anyone between day one and this post?

Conservative? Between Projammer and dnooman, I cast the tying vote, turning the tide against the prevailing vote-leader. If he turns out Town, that’s my ass. That’s conservative?

@Omin no Kami

…that’s why I haven’t, and currently don’t intend to, vote today: I haven’t seen any really good evidence for scuminess from anyone…

That’s conservative!

Pot meet Kettle.

Reread what you wrote in 1) and 2) above, look in the mirror, and tell me why I couldn’t apply that to you?

I don’t know what to make of you. The nature of your posts has, in my mind, made you more of a big fat question mark than even Lightnin’. One minute you say something senseless like “lynch the tactful”, and the next minute you come out to explain it in the most perfectly reasonable terms. (post #773)

Time is not of the essence here. I could be way off base, and you just
might be newbie town, not just playing one. If you’re town, I think that
will filter through sometime in the near future. And if you’re Mafia, I’m
confident your newbie facade will slip and you will hang.

[fluiddruid]

@Kyrie Eleison

Now that’s a vote I can get on board with.

So, you cite a bunch of stuff that happened on day one. Curious. Where were you at the beginning of Day Two with this information? You only seem motivated to vote for me now that another person did, too – and after I voted for you twice. You failed to mention that. Curious again.

I don’t care for it much when someone votes for a person while saying that they’re more certain that someone else is scum. It smacks of having multiple convenient targets to chose from.

And here I was thinking that there was more than one person in the Mafia. Oh, wait. Who in this game hasn’t posted who they find suspicious, or even laundry lists of “scum”, “likely scum”, “likely town”? Not many. I simply want my vote to count. At this point I don’t feel like we have a lot more information – nor the time – to start from scratch before the day’s over.

Not a serious lynching candidate? So where was the unvote when train built up steam? Maybe she was away during the remaining hours and not aware of the effect her vote had, but that strikes me as bit too convenient.

To be honest, I mistook the time and was surprised when the day came to a halt. I don’t really regret it, but saying that I led the bandwagon against percypercy is just silly. I cast the best vote that I felt I had in that situation. The only thing I regret is that he turned out to be town, instead of scum like I hoped.

In a way, I’m taking the coward’s way out. Since my gut tells me that both dnooman and Projammer are town, I don’t really want to cast a vote for either.

To me, you seem to be trying one of the following:

• Casting a meaningless vote for someone who is unlikely to be lynched
• Trying to see if a last minute vote on someone else who you’ve “suspected” since extremely early in the game will work

I won’t vote no lynch, because I think that’s almost always bad for the town.

And because you know you’ll get nailed for it. It makes no sense to vote no lynch. Hell, I was “suspicious” because I responded to someone else agreeing NOT to no lynch!

I know that refusing to get on either of the most prominent wagons will raise some eyebrows, but nonetheless, I think I will vote for the person I think most likely to be scum. Vote: fluiddruid

I was right to vote for you to begin with and I’m glad you’ve shown your true colors now. This is the scummiest post I’ve seen this game.

I tend to believe Snakecatlady – due to her playing style, she’s been shown to be very hesitant to cast a decisive and meaningful vote – but when you do it, it makes no sense and is incredibly suspicious. Let’s face it. Which makes more sense:

You honestly forgot about all this stuff from Day One until the last minute, and SnakeCatLady’s argument against me was so compelling that you decided I was the best candidate for your vote.

or

You’re voting for me because I keep voting for you, and I’ve been the biggest advocate against you. You’d like to see me lynched eventually to shut me up (and you wouldn’t mind putting me in Projammer’s current position for Day Three (assuming I’m still around), and throwing your vote away at the last minute seems like a good move to avoid being responsible. Maybe you even know that one or both candidates are town and you don’t want to get your hands bloody.

I know what my opinion is.

[tirial]

Current vote count as I make it:

5 – Projammer (ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies, nesta, Millit the Frail, Rachm Qoch, dnooman)
5 – dnooman (Lightnin’, DiggitCamara, Hal Briston, Idle Thoughts, fluiddruid)
2 – fluiddruid (SnakesCatLady, Kyrie Eleison,)
1 – CaerieD (Blaster Master)
1 – SnakesCatLady (Lemur866)
2 – No Lynch (Projammer, CaerieD,)

2 who haven’t voted - Omi No Kami and Tirial.

[SnakesCatLady]

@fluiddruid

I tend to believe Snakecatlady – due to her playing style, she’s been shown to be very hesitant to cast a decisive and meaningful vote – but when you do it, it makes no sense and is incredibly suspicious.

I’m sorry I am being perceived as “hesitant to cast a decisive and meaningful vote”. I am simply trying to cast votes for those I have at least some reason to doubt. If they are able to change my mind, good for them and I am likely to change my vote unless further evidence comes along.

I am not going to vote for someone I am not reasonably sure of. I don’t care if every other player is doing voting for them.

[DiggitCamara]

Does anyone have an idea when the day ends?

[tirial]

@DiggitCamara

Does anyone have an idea when the day ends?

Post 583 by Gadarene

Day Two has dawned. Night will fall on Saturday at 5:57 p.m. my time, if not sooner.

Also Dnooman, I was looking back at Post 401. In Post 401 you describe how a mafia game was lost with you doing exactly the same things you are doing now.

Long story short, my appeals to emotion and frustration led one of the townies to decide to lynch me and we lost.

Example appeal to emotion: Post 766 (there are others)

I feel sorry for the innocent townies that get killed as a result of my death, I feel no remorse for the slimy scum that get exposed due to my baiting them.

Why are you doing exactly the same things that you state lead to the loss for the town in that game again here? You’ve got to be smarter than that. Try appealing to logic, instead of emotion. It gives us more to debate when you are alive and if you die, it gives us concrete leads to follow up on.

[tirial]

Ok, I said I’d vote so I shall, reluctantly.

I can’t find any obvious scum tells, so “definitely scum” I can’t do.

I am equally suspicious of Projammer and dnooman. Dnooman’s posts 401 and 378 sit badly with me on rereading them. Projammer’s claim is understandable only if it is a) true or b) he’s scum. If I discount it, my original reasons for voting for him are still valid.

If I place a last minute swing vote, it costs the town and me if I am wrong.

Without other input, I can’t place a valid vote.

With that said vote Lightnin, on the grounds that if I was wrong about Projammer, the percypercy bandwagon formed to get attention off Lightnin.

[tirial]

Changing vote. Interesting voting pattern.

Dnooman, if I, **Diggit Camara ** and **Idle thoughts ** are “definitely scum” why have you not voted for us?

As it is Idle Thought and I haven’t been voted for, and Diggit has only had a low vote count.
Unvote Lightnin

[CaerieD]

Hrm, I see not a great deal has changed throughout the day. When does the night begin?

[Omi_no_Kami]

Rachm Qoch, you might be an honest townie who really, really thinks I’m scum, since you keep railing on me for no good reason, but I just don’t see what you’re getting at here. My earlier argument didn’t say anything about scum not making accusations: I think everyone else who read it can agree that I was trying to emphasize the fact that suspicion and accusation without analysis is in itself suspicious. I didn’t say “People who don’t make accusations seem scummy,” I said “People who make accusations without providing elucidating analysis seem scummy”.

As I’ve said like three times by now, the reason for this is pretty clear-cut: if you have a good reason for making an accusation, and the accused hangs and turns out to be town, it’s quite easy for other townies to analyze your argument and look for traces of scuminess. If you just make accusations without a good reason, it just adds to the white noise.

And frankly, your response doesn’t alleviate my suspicions in any way. I said “Hey, let’s look for people who are trying not to make content-heavy posts,” and used the types of posts you and catlady have been making as examples. As examples, not as accusations.

So you come back with “You fit the profile you’re summarizing,” (which I don’t) “So I think *you’re *suspicious!”

I’m having more and more trouble believing that a) My arguments are this ambiguously worded or b) That you’re honestly this bad at interpreting things.

FOS I say!

[dnooman]

@tirial

Changing vote. Interesting voting pattern.

Dnooman, if I, **Diggit Camara ** and **Idle thoughts ** are “definitely scum” why have you not voted for us?

As it is Idle Thought and I haven’t been voted for, and Diggit has only had a low vote count.
Unvote Lightnin

As soon as I would unvote Projammer, I would die (given the tied votes). I’ve made my suspicions known quite clearly, but I have an obligation to the town to not let someone who I know to be town get lynched. Simple really.