Magic: The Gathering theoretical format

Cafe Society
21

I still maintain that Force of will, blue card, and X will draw any deck out there.
If your goal is to use mishra’s factories, my X will be a strip mine.
If your goal is to pox me and get a creature in play I will FOW your pox.
If your goal is to bring two creatures out I will FOW one creature and my X will a 0 casting cost artifact creature to block.

The only deck I’ve seen suggested that beats this idea is the double rack deck. There is an X out there to counter that second rack, I just haven’t thought of it yet. Is there a blue creature with 5 strength that costs 3 or less mana? If so, I can beat your rack deck.

22

Correction, I did think of it. My FOW, blue card, X deck will draw to your double rack deck too.

How?

Think about the wording on The Rack, then ask Joshua from Wargames for the answer…
:slight_smile:

MaxTheVool, my friend created the ultimate no-possible-win deck. Then he played it in a PT. Oh the hilarity.

23

How does that beat 3 mishra’s? Your strip will only kill one of them, and you’ll be facing a 2/2…

Yup, pox does lose to FOW.

Yup, that works too: As far as I know, the 0 casting cost artifact creatures are ornithopter (0/2) Shield sphere (0/6, but shrinks after each block) and phyrexian walker (0/3). I don’t think anyone can manage to cast 2 creatures with 3 power or more each, so the walker’s the one to play.

The walker’s a good catch, MaxtheVool that should stop most Nether Spirit decks.

I doubt it, but you’re right anyway, you can just not play any cards and the rack deck won’t work. That goes for anyone. Anyone can draw the rack deck by just not playing anything.

24

Other than Sorrow’s Path. :slight_smile:

So to beat Rack and 2 Mines, you need to be able to play your threat on Turn 1. What about Lotus, Indentured Djinn, Strip Mine? By holding the Strip, you only take 2 per turn, and swing for 4 in the air. This also beats Factory by Mining it and swinging. Rootwalla can still overrun it, even with Pendlehaven gone. And Foil stops it cold, of course. Not so good.

This may be the case. It just seems like the format can produce a deck that will beat all but the mirror. Maybe not. I think it’s a fun mental exercise, though.

Sidenote:
For any that might be coming to Gen Con this year, look me up. I hope to be co-hosting the biggest draft in the world. One pack each from Revised/The Dark through the current set. 37, 38 packs or so. Once drafted, each player will build a 125 card deck. We’re hoping to gather two pods of 8 for it. Cost? Around 120 bucks, with some neat prizes planned, pluys the drafted cards, of course. This will be a marathon event, not for the faint of heart. Anyone interested?

–
Justin

25

A curious game. The only way to win is not to play.

Yes, you will draw against the double rack deck. But I think that if we find a deck that can, at worst, draw against all the others, that’s the best possible. The rack deck is not this deck, because it loses to the goblin vandal. But if we did find one, then it wouldn’t matter if every deck could draw against it, because it would never lose, and would beat some decks. Such a deck would be the best possible deck.

The closest thing that I can think of to a big blue creature like that would be Chronatog, which is U1 for a 1/2, that can get +3/+3 if you skip a turn. It’s only a 4/5 every other turn, but you only take damage from the racks on your turn, which you will be skipping half the time, so it’s just as good.

However, my understanding of the challenge makes it so that FoW, Blue card, x, is not a reasonable deck unless the x and the blue card are named. There has to be one particular configuration that will beat (or draw) all comers. Saying that “if your deck is this, then my x is this” doesn’t mean that that is the optimal deck, only that the suggested deck is not the best, as it would be beat by Fow, blue card, x.

Oh, and city of traitors, sol ring, phyrexian processor would beat the rootwalla deck (or, really, any creature based deck) into the ground in a painful way. But would of course die to FoW, blue, x.

Also, how are we to deal with random effects? It seems like we have to be able to deal with the worst case, or is it enough to solve for average case? If a certain deck won against all others with a >50% chance, then that would be the best deck.

26

I really think that the situation is a reduction to deck types where in each deck type has a counter.

Two mana sources 1 card is always beaten by Force of Will. No exceptions.
The One Mana source two Cards have a lot of sub-types but revolve around either beating someone into a pulp really fast (the only way to win really) or using a trick like the Rack to force a draw on decks not designed to counter it. These decks are either beatable by the Force of Will deck, by design dependent on mistake of the other player (the Rack deck and similiar ones) or because of designing them to beat Rack decks and the like are vulnerable to other decks.

Why is this? Because each card can do only 1 thing at 1 time in Magic. You have to either choose to play a deck or a counter-deck. If you choose a counter-deck then you can’t be the best deck because a lot of decks cause a draw (as designed). If you choose a deck you cannot defend against countering strategies targeting you deck. Because Magic is play-tested no card, especially at low casting costs, can beat all strategies to stop it. More generally cards were designed to prevent unstoppable low mana low card requirement combos that were exceedingly good. They tweak the fun of the real version. Given these things I think that the better definition of best has to do with the empirical question of what deck has the best Win-Stall Tie-Loose record when played in all possible conditions.

Random effects are an interesting snag to figuring out a best deck without empirically testing. Though what cards are you thinking would be useful even though they are random?

That said this thread has kicked ass and thankfully not reactivated my Magic addiction (which was never really strong to begin with but damn it is a fun game).

27

Really? Forest, Mishra’s Factory, Blurred Mongoose. That’ll spank FoW up one side and down the other.

I think this means that the key here, as in all Magic to a lesser extent, is to generate maximum utility from your cards, as exemplified by the Factory/Mine/Quicksand deck. All three cards are mana generator, plus threats, plus answers, and are uncounterable.

**

I can’t think of any quality random cards that could make it into a deck like this. Mana Clash is as close to it as I can think of, but I still wouldn’t use it.

And thanks for the compliment. (I’ve never started a kick-ass thread before. Hell, I’ve never started one with more than six or seven responses!) This is one of the things I love most about Magic: its uncanny ability to spawn unbounded variations that challenge the brain. The Reverse Mental Magic mentioned by MTGMan is extremely intriguing; I’m looking forward to tormenting some folks with it on Friday.

–
Justin

28

This question spawns the next question… if we assume that the question is unanswerable for 3 (ie, there is no 3 card deck that will always win playing first), then what is the smallest n for which the question is answerable? Can you build a 7-card deck which, playing first, will beat any other conceivable 7-card deck? What about a 20-card deck? (assuming both people start with all cards in hand).

(it certainly seems that for a large enough n, it should be possible. But we won’t know for certain until someone does it.)

The approach I’m thinking involves finding some x-card instant-win combo, such as 2xlotus, enduring renewal, goblin bombardment, ornithopter, and then adding another y cards whose function is to force through an abeyance. So, for instance, I’d have 1000 cards. 5 of them are the combo. 995 of them are some combination of cards that will force an abeyance or an orim’s chant past 500 force of wills. (For the purposes of this question, it makes things more interesting to ignore the “lose 1 life” clause on force of will)

Furthermore, if you try to abeyance or orim’s chant someone, they can misdirect it back at you. Oops. City of solitude gets around that, but it costs 3 mana, so you basically need a lotus for each city of solitude, and then they can just counter all the lotuses. You could try to do it with nothing but uncounterable things… lots of elvish spirit guides, a mountain and urza’s rage. But urza’s rage can be misdirected, and it needs two red for the kicker anyhow. Hmmmm.
Maybe you could do something that involved tolarian academy… plus 700 0-cost artifacts, at most 500 of which will be countered. Then play academy, tap for at least 200 mana… but that doesn’t really get you anywhere. You could beat 500 force of wills with 997 mox sapphires, a tolarian academy and 2 urza’s rages. For that matter, you don’t even need the academy. But you’d lose to the 500 misdirection draw. Hmmm…

29

The Rack
Color= Artifact Type= Artifact Cost= 1 AQ(U3)/R(U)/4(U)
Text (4th+errata): As ~this~ comes into play, choose an opponent. ; At the beginning of the chosen player’s upkeep, ~this~ deals X damage to that player where X is three minus the the number of cards in his or her hand. [Oracle 2001/08/24]

So they could hold all three cards and never take damage from the Rack. Cute, but here’s a different twist on the rack deck. It’d win games where it went first if played by a good guesser, and it would win subsequent games if it went first. Swamp, Blackmail, Rack would beat most decks except three-land. Swamp, Cabal Therapy, Rack, would beat a lot of decks even if it went first. Swamp, Encroach, Rack could possibly race three-Mishras and be less vulnerable to Strip Mine. Swamp, Funeral Charm, Rack could be annoying because Funeral Charm is an instant. Essentially any single-cost discard effect could force them to have an answer to the rack. Play it first and they’ll have to either pitch cards to counter it(Foil or Force of Will), thereby bringing them below 3 cards, or discard, bringing them below 3 cards. If you use something that can wack nonbasic lands you could put the hurt on decks that use Mishra’s/Strip mines. Would beat Rootwalla, which is probably the fastest beatdown we’ve seen so far. Hmmm.

Enjoy,
Steven

30

I think mtgman may have come up with an unbeatable deck. Swamp-blackmail-rack, playing first, draws with some things, but I can’t think of anything that actually beats it. (Bear in mind that blackmail can steal lands).

Blackmail
{B}
Sorcery
Target player reveals three cards from his or her hand and you choose one of them. That player discards that card.
It’s easy to come up with a deck that this deck can’t beat (3xdodecapod is one), but in those cases, this deck can just do nothing and take a draw. I have yet to think of a deck that can beat this one. The best I can think of is some trick involving some flashback card where it doesn’t matter whether it gets discarded or not. If lion’s eye diamond produced 4 mana instead of 3, 2xLED plus roar of the wurm would do it. 2xpendlehaven + basking rootwalla gives this deck a run for it, but ends up getting outraced.

Hmmmm. Will ponder more. Must get back to work.

31

Um why can’t I force of will black mail?

Strip Mine as the third card makes the second card played moot. It also knocks out the factory deck idea. The Blue Card, FoW, Strip Mine is the smallest version of the all around evil counter deck.

As for the Land deck 3 Strip Mines grinds things to a halt.

I agree an interesting question is if there is an n lower than 7 for which there is a best deck. After 7 you bring in chance. Though I guess the starting with all cards in hand lets you ask for what n unbound is there a best deck. Personally I think that more cards merely allows for a split between attack method and defense from counter. However since in this scenario decks designed for stalls are viable, and in some ways they are in actual Magic as they can be made to work on the run out victory condition, there will always be an explicit counter deck that gets around defense because it doesn’t bother with any cards besides defense.

Now I think it is telling that some decks are only beatable by counter decks, and some by very specific counter decks. These decks are the best ideas and if what makes them good is made clear it may be useful in real Magic deck design.

32

Well, you can Force of Will, or Foil, it. But that’s kind of the point, it’s not really beatable with a counter deck. You have to play Force of Will, Strip Mine, Random Blue card, or Foil, Island, Strip Mine, and then the best you could hope for is a draw. The mirror match is stupid though. Play first = win. (take their land). It would lose to some fat creature beatdown. Lotus, Dark Ritual, Juzam Djinn would beat it if Juzam went first. If the Swamp, Blackmail, Rack deck played first in game two they’d beat them and then game three would go back to the Juzam deck by virtue of playing first.

Enjoy,
Steven

33

The thing is if you can’t beat the play for a draw decks then you are the best. Unless you define best as of all the decks designable at 3 cards it has the best win/tie/loss stats. No 3 card counter deck can win. The counter decks are there to wipe out the majority of the viable decks. What is left are decks that have clear vulnerabilities because they can actually beat the counter deck.

If you remove the strategy of countering to a draw then the problem is much less interesting. Its just a search through the cards for the way to do damage the fastest.

34

I define the best deck as one that can reach a tic-tac-toe situation. The deck cannot lose, but will only draw or win, with the exception of the mirror match. It must be capable of actually winning at least some matchups, not just designed to stall evrey matchup.

–
Justin

35

After careful consideration, I’m going to agree that the best deck for this format is swamp, blackmail, rack.

To understand this, we need to realize how this format works.
There are four, and only four possibilities, available:

  1. all mana sources (i.e. mishra’s factories)
  2. two mana sources, one other card
  3. one mana source, two other cards
  4. three other cards

We can eliminate #4 right off the bat because it can’t ever cast anything!

#3 will ALWAYS lose if I go first because I can get rid of the mana source and ensure it never casts anything. Then I bring the rack down next turn and it will lose in 20 turns. If #3 goes first, it becomes a race. If it can deal at least 3 points per turn using one and only one card, it can win. If not, I win.

#2 will also always lose if I go first as I will get rid of its one non mana source card. The only exception to this is if one of its mana sources is a strip mine. Then we tie.
If it goes first, it will again need to deal more than 3 damage each turn because that’s how much I’ll be doing to it.

#1 cannot win either against this deck. Those mishras factories aren’t fast enough. Mix in some strip mines and it still won’t do the trick.

Against a deck whose sole purpose is drawing, it will draw. It cannot lose this match but it has the potential to win if my oponent doesn’t use strip mine as his X card.

So yes, I think swamp blackmail rack is the best deck in this format.

36

Well, Swamp, Blackmail, Rack is a pretty nasty deck, it will always win at least 1/3 games against anything except Counter-Strip. It loses to anything that lays a fat creature that can outrace the Rack. Lotus, Ritual, Juzam, or Lotus, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Mahamoti for example. Still it will go 50/50 with these decks over all. If it plays first in game one of a three game match it will beat either of these decks, lose game two, then win game three. It will never do anything but draw with Counter-Strip. Then it will beat other decks, including 3-Mishras. So it wins against any non-counter, non-fast fatty deck, draws with Counter-Strip, loses 50% of games against fast-fatty. Wins 50%, on average, of the mirror match. If it’s not the best, it’s a strong candidate.

Enjoy,
Steven

37

I agree. This meets my criteria as best deck, provided no one can think of a deck that can beat it going second and still hold its own against the other decks. Thanks to MTGMan for the deck and Enderw24 for the elegant almost-proof. :slight_smile:

–
Justin

38

Sadly, that is not true. In addition to force of will, there are various other pitch cards that have been printed, perhaps the most notable for our purposes being Vine Dryad, a 1/3 green creature that you can play, as an instant, by removing a green spell in your hand from the game.
Something else stopping your proof from being absolute is cards which can be cast out of the graveyard (flashback), and cards that can be cast as they are discarded (madness). I’m not sure if there is actually a way to use either of these mechanics to come up with a hand that beats swamp/blackmail/rack, but the possibiltiy exists. (two that come close are 2xlion’s eye diamond+roar of the wurm, which ends up one mana short, and 2xpendlehaven+basking rootwalla, which ends up not quite being able to race, but both of them break the “lock” that your proof describes.

39

Well, it doesn’t quite meet your criteria Justin. Your actual criteria was

The deck WILL lose to Lotus, Dark Ritual, Juzam fully half the time. It will draw with counter-strip 100% of the time(but then again almost everything will draw with counter-strip except 3-Mishras) Now you have to decide if that’s a big enough concern to not run it or if you think Lotus, DR, Juzam isn’t viable enough to cause you problems. Standard metagame analysis here.

Enjoy,
Steven(wonder if I should use my old usenet sig here, oh what the heck)
King of Casual Play
The One and Only Defender of Cards That Blow

40

Oh, and Max, two Pendlehavens are generally considered a bad thing :wink: [sub]c.f. the definition of “Legendary”[/sub]

Enjoy,
Steven