What does mean exactly “religious belief is a large part of what I am”? It’s a very unclear statement.
Let’s pick another example. Let’s assume you’re a die-hard communist. Is it morally acceptable in this case for someone to be actively hostile to communism, in your opinion?
I could also launch a counter-attack : another poster is telling me that hell exists and that I could very well end up there. Am I correct in assuming that since she’s a strong believer and very supportive of the christian god, it logically follows that she very much wish me to be horribly tortured forever?
This argument has turned bizarre in my opinion. Your using the slippery slope argument with the starting point being belief that you don’t choose religion and the end point as not being responsible for raping a woman.
I’m trying to think of something pithy to say in retort, but I’m drawing a blank on this one. It is just too strange…
Sure, you could argue that, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s been done. Isn’t relevant in a court of law, though. Unless you can provide a precedence for the ‘Well, I think it’s ok, therefore it’s legal’ defense?
You’re drawing conclusions from your own words, not just mine. I did not say you have no control over or responsibility for your actions. I believe the opposite to be true. While you may feel compelled to act according to your beliefs, as a member of society, you must realize there will be consequences of your actions, such as imprisonment or, as on the SDMB, insulting other people, which then shapes their opinions of you.
Sheesh. This reminds me of the times when I mention (usually in a off-hand way, perhaps when I am offered food with meat in it) that I am a vegetarian.
Very often, the person I am talking to will say, “Oh, I don’t eat a lot of meat myself…” Or, they’ll say, “You’ve GOT to eat meat! It’s not healthy!” And on and on and on.
The thing that always gets me is that I NEVER ASKED THEM WHAT THEY EAT, I EVER ASKED THEM FOR THEIR OPINION ON MY DIET. And yet they immediately have to start yammering about it, as my eyes start to glaze over from the tedium of it all. Frankly, it tells me a whole lot about them, and what they are thinking.
And so I see on this thread, that many of you have to start yammering about why you don’t believe, why we religious folk are all a bunch of big dummies, and so on. But, as Jodi already has told you (many times) SHE DIDN’T ASK YOU ABOUT THAT. And yet you persist in yammering about it. This tells all of us a great deal about your attitudes, frankly.
This thread reminds me strongly of a recent thread where a gay Doper called heterosexuals “breeders”, and even though he was repeatedly told that it was offensive, he insisted that we (the straight people) were the ones with the problem. Come on. You all know better than this. It’s a common courtesy thing. No one is asking you to alter your opinions or beliefs, we’re just asking you to use a little consideration. But you refuse to show that consideration.
That’s OK. Now we know where you stand. You don’t intend to show any respect for other people’s feelings. (Not I said feelings, notbeliefs) So—OK. We got it. You’ve made it abundantly clear. You just don’t give a damn about other people’s feelings.
I don’t think it’s a slippery slope argument. If I can’t choose my beliefs and opinions, and I’m not responsible of them, them being only the unavoidable result of my previous experiences, education, etc…What exactly am I responsible for.
Let’s say I hate the jews. According to the poster, I’m not responsible of this feeling. I think they should all be killed. I’m still not responsible for this belief. Why should I be considered responsible if I kill a jew when I have the chance? It’s the logical result of opinions i didn’t choose and am not responsible of. Therefore, i’m not responsible for this murder.
How actions can be constructed as being something else than the result of feelings, opinions, beliefs, etc…? If I don’t choose my opinions, beliefs and feelings, i don’t choose my actions, either. If i’m not responsible for the former, i’m not responsible for the latter…
I’d be happy to explain on my part. I can’t speak for Guinistasia of course. Let me be crystal clear so you can be crystal clear right back, as I have asked you to be.
1)I have a deeply held belief in deity.
2)My perception of deity does in fact guide me in my daily interactions with others.
3)You can argue till your blue in the face that deity does not exist. I will smile and keep believing anyway.
4)I respect other’s beliefs and non-beliefs as well. My opinion is that each person has an individual path that he or she must follow.
5)I do spend time every week trying to understand deity a little better.
6)12 years of Catholic school has shaped me into who I am today, for better or worse.
7) Catholic school actually gave me the impetus to become Wiccan, and I would posit that it allowed me to appreciate Wicca that much more.
If you would like further clarification, I would be more than happy to email you a list of what “religious belief is a large part of what I am” means to me. I thought it was clear from the beginning, but I guess I was mistaken.
In my set of beliefs, it is morally un-acceptable for me to be hostile to any group, belief, or non-belief. And yes, that includes even hate groups, in case you’re wondering. Is it morally un-acceptable for someone else? Well, it’s up to that person to decide, now isn’t it?
You could, but that would be a waste of time, since I’m not attacking you. Right?
Not to be too flippant, but assuming makes an ass out of you and me. Instead of assuming, I would ask the poster to be crystal clear on what he/she thinks, so that you don’t misrepresent each other. Much as I’m doing right now with you as a matter of fact.
I reiterate my question:
Oh and regarding this whole predestination thing and not being responsible for your beliefs and actions, I don’t agree and I do believe that everyone has choices and must accept the consequences of those choices. Further I believe that beliefs are based upon past experiences. Your experiences have obviously led you to this point in life, and therefore it is entirely plausible that experience chose the path you’re on, but that’s as far as I will go. In no way does this disavow you of responsibilty for the choices you make. Your argument is still strange in my opinion, but to each his or her own.
So, can you explain to me how an action isn’t the result of your emotions, beliefs, opinions, etc…? Why did you choose, say, your current job? Wasn’t it the result of your personal leanings? If I choose to become a drug dealer, isn’t it similarily the result of my life experiences, education, etc… ?
If I’ve no control, no choices about what i think, how can you say i’ve a control on my actions? How can I act independantly from my thoughts (over which i’ve no control)? If i’ve the “choice” being doing A and B, and if my decision is based on elements I never chosen and have no control over, how can you state that I’ve freely “chosen” to do A rather than B? I didn’t. This action was similarily the mere result of my life experiences.
If the action I “chose” is to kill and rob you, it was plainly unavoidable in this philosophical system. Perhaps i’ll be sent to the electric chair, based on the non chosen moral opinions of the legislator, the non-chosen feelings of the jury and the non chosen decision of the judge. But that is as much unavoidable. Nobody can anymore considered as an agent. Or at least, not as a a responsible agent. We’re just things following the laws of causality.
I can’t answer to that. It’s your pick, actually. I said I’m actively hostile to your beliefs. Only you can tell if it’s the same as being hostile toward you, based on the importance you give to these beliefs when defining yourself.
Of course, that should be fez… but still. If there was a hat that was called a “fex” it would probably be funny. Wouldn’t it?
[smiles at Jodi for the nice lack of fez hat] Hear ye, hear ye, I shall not refer to any person’s fundamental beliefs in a taunting manner.
Really, though, in all seriousness I would never have considered that the MSP would really be all that offensive. But then, I also say “cocksucker” so I’m not be be a trusted authority on these sorts of things. It is a point worth making, all joking aside. Even if I never said it.
But I asked you what your thoughts were, since my thoughts are obviously known to me, being the optimist that I am.
We are still not crystal clear, but I won’t press any further.
And eris, if you don’t want that fez, I’ll take it! It would go great with my smoking jacket!
ERIS, when I get that feeling, I want fexual healing.
[sub]Sorry. Couldn’t resist. [/sub]
FWIW, I’m still following this discussion and finding it interesting. I appreciate the thoughtfulness (in both senses of the word) of the responses of many of the non-believers. You’ve restored my faith (ha!) in you as a class.
I have a question directly for MRVISIBLE and CLAIROBSCUR –
Hmmm…just thought about something…
I stated that comparing your belief god with a belief in fairies was a valid analogy. People on this thread told they felt insulted, and that one should respect the dear-held beliefs and sensitivities of other people irrelevant of whether or not one find these beliefs ludicrous.
But…there are people who believe in fairies, however rare they are. And by feeling insulted, you clearly assessing that their belief is ludicrous and that there’s no way it could or should be compared with your mainstream belief.
So…how can you reconcile your respect toward people who hold other beliefs, and the despise you’re displaying toward this marginal belief when you state that the comparison is insulting? It’s a serious question, actually…
I already said what I think : I’m actively hostile to religions.
It’s very similar to the fairies issue, actually. I didn’t call anybody “fairy!” (and assuming that I would have , it’s a rather tame insult), I compared the belief in god with the belief in fairies. It’s some of the believers here who have felt personnaly insulted by the comparison.
Similarily, when I say i’m actively hostile toward your religion, it up to you to decide whether it’s the same as being actively hostile toward you or not…
Analogy: You mock a Christian by calling Jesus “that Mithras knockoff” when there may still be followers of Mithras around.
That’s just my opinion though.
Ever the optimist, I will assume you are not intentionally evading my question. If I met you on the street tomorrow, would you be hostile towards me, knowing full well what you know about me? It’s a yes or no question.
Again, I don’t want to press this. I want to sleep sometime too. You can reiterate your previous answers if you want, I won’t ask again.
Since you have made it clear that showing contempt and hostility for one’s religious beliefs is perfectly acceptable to you, should I change my position and encourage my fellow parishioners to show contempt to you and other atheists rather than discouraging them as planned?
And this as well, reprise. (Thanks for being a breath of fresh air in this discussion!)
Or if someone poked their head into the thread about whether Bert Blyleven belongs in the Hall of Fame, simply to express their disdain for baseball. (No one did, fortunately, but that sort of thing happens here from time to time.)
And in all of these cases, there’s no board rule or IRL law against it - but the rules of common courtesy say in all these cases that the discussion hasn’t been opened up far enough for the expression of that sort of opinion to be anything but rude.
Maybe I got lost somewhere, clairobscur, but isn’t that the subject of this thread?
