I also recommend people study the Zionist movement and specifically the experiences of the earliest Jewish settlers up until 1948. By and large for most of that time the toughness of the Jews was about the equivalent of the toughness of the Spaniards in the New World–they were using modern weapons and military tactics against a very backwards and undeveloped people living in a backwater region of the Ottoman Empire (which itself was in a state of massive decay.)
And discussions about the beliefs of Judaism and Islam tend to end up being discussions about what Christians believe about Judaism and Islam.
This is so unbelievably ridiculous. You think accountants and lawyers are well respected by the majority of people? More like envied and mistrusted. The Jews were great merchants, bankers and moneylenders throughout Europe for hundreds of years and this didn’t make anyone respect them.
I’m not arguing that Americans respect non-Israeli Jews because of anything Israel did; just that they respect Israel for winning a bunch of underdog battles against much larger countries, and continuing to hold their own.
I disagree for a lot of reasons. Mohammad is the ‘one true prophet’ whereas Judaism (unless you count the chabad folks) doesn’t have that.
Within all three religions, none of them have the same concept of big G God.
actually, Judaism wasn’t even ‘traditionally’ monotheistic in origin - we believed in the existence of other gods, just didn’t follow any other
Yeah, but what happens to the other 12 or 13 million? 
They get to start wearing revealing clothes?
I should’ve clarified. I was talking about specific Evangelical organizations that support Israel…and of course the non fundamentalists who just seem to respect Jews because of that Jesus origin. :o
I think (speculation here) that Jews and Christians in 2011 may feel a little more ‘united’ (even reluctantly) in the face of 21st C. warfare and terrorism. Christians have suffered persecutions in Muslim countries and I feel like it’s heading (unfortunately) in an us. v. them direction. 
I agree a little bit, and the ‘left leaning’ (I have no idea where I am on that) Jews are probably wrinkling their noses at the Pat Robertson types.
I think America can ‘relate’ to Israel a little bit better. If I went to Israel, yeah, there’d be a somewhat of a culture shock, but it’s nothing you can’t adjust to.
imho Western Europeans tend to look down on Americans, Americans have a hard time understanding Eastern European cultures, and Israel is kind of this East meets West conglomerate.
I’d vote that when Jews are helpless and defensive, people can feel sorry for them, but when Jews are tough and can defend themselves, they become racist/terrorists/killers/evil/whateverism who chop down olive trees for fun.
I don’t think the Greek orthodox (and some other branches) accept the Trinity the same way…but I’d vote that some of the Jewish and Muslim appreciation for tradition comes from being a ‘tribal’ sort of people.
The hadith, like the Talmud, is the ‘oral’ tradition, or the things not explicitly written. sighs Once upon a time, a long looooooonnnng kind of thinking ago, Jews and Muslims were forward thinking intellectuals who advocated science, philosophy, reason, and art. In the very beginning of Islam, Jews enjoyed a much better position under their Muslim leaders.
sigh
I won’t make blanket judgments on Islam, but it seems as though Muslims have been hijacked (so to speak) in their faith by the unfortunate circumstances of history.
[quote=“Diogenes_the_Cynic, post:47, topic:581330”]
I think you’re wrong about this. Evangelicals, by and large, support Israel because they think the Temple has to be restored for Jesus to come back (not because of the Rapture, which is a quirky, non-Biblical, minority belief among Christians). Christian fundies do not respect the Jewish religion as legitimate,
Legit as in ‘as good as’ - no. But it took a long time for the various sects to accept that Judiasm was legit and now it’s considered a religion instead of pagan backwardness. That was part of the blowup in the messianic pretend-jew thread.
We have ourselves a bit of a marriage. It’s not one sided.
It does when you’re Israel. Maybe not so much toughness to send rockets into Jewish neighborhoods from Lebanon, but then again, when Israel retaliates, you’ll win the PR war. :o
Meh. I’d like to see mandatory military and police forces in the U.S.
But we never will because we need Israel, so.
I don’t think so. Not in practice. Re: kosher/halal, it’s again, I think more of a tribal thing and the fact that Islam is an offset of Judaism. (Well…not offset, but sort of started out that way.)
I’m going to assume this is about the other thread, so I don’t know why you’d want to bring it in here or confuse a minority religious sect with the rest of us.
Actually, I was just referring to the fact that the people who think they’re going to be raptured are generally pretty conservative… but I’m going to pretend I was referring to the other thread, because then it’s funnier.
This is only because of how it’s spun in the media. Back in the 60s and 70s, from what I have heard, you didn’t have this public anti-Israel hysteria because back then it seemed like Israel was David versus the Goliath of the much larger Arab countries. I mean, Israel was attacked by six different countries at once, and managed to fight them off. OK, they had military aid from other countries. Still. If I give a random goon a full American infantry kit and an M-16 does that immediately make him a good soldier? They had a tough war to fight, they won it, and people respected them - especially since only a few decades ago, the only picture of Jews that anyone knew was emaciated corpses stripped of their humanity and shoveled into mass graves.
Ever since the development of a “Palestinian” national identity - something that did not really exist a half century ago - now it’s turned upside down and Israel is Goliath and the Palestinians are David. So now the Arabs are seen as the underdog, and Israel is seen as the bully. Never mind that the Arab world - big Arab powerhouses with serious oil dollars - put financial support behind the anti-Israel terrorist groups.
It’s all a matter of spin, baby.
This is incorrect. Muhammed is one of three great prophets
For Judaism and Islam, it’s exactly the same. Muhammed explicitly identified his God as one and the same as the Jewish one. There is no difference in theology.
Well, doctors were less respected than barbers in the Middle Ages and even up until the 18th century. That’s got fuck all to do with the year 2010 or even 1960. This isn’t 1400s England where people shit on moneylenders because of the immorality of usury. During the entirety of my life doctors, lawyers, and accountants have all been highly respected individuals. People make lawyer jokes but at the end of the day how many lawyers are on local city councils, county commissions, in Statehouses, in Congress, and how many have been in the White House? For a supposedly ‘disreputable’ profession it seems like people are pretty happy to have them running things.
I’m from southern Virginia so I think my redneck street cred is pretty valid, and I’ve never observed any “respect” for Israel in the populace here at large. There is some respect for special forces, but people in America respected the USSR’s Spetsnaz and British SAS, and that’s not out of any generalized uber-respect for Brits and Russians, but just out a healthy respect most people have for highly trained special forces units.
FWIW, the people I’ve heard laud Israeli special forces don’t even note or talk about their Jewishness, it’s almost a non-issue. So I definitely don’t think any respect for Jews in general has been created because of Israel. On the whole of it I’d actually say Israel has turned more people against Jews than would otherwise be, especially in Europe.
And the same people that respect British SAS and fictional characters like James Bond are the same that buy into the stereotypes of British people as all being posh fop pettifoggers who sip tea all day while wearing white lace. Any respect people might have for the Israeli Military special forces has nothing to do with how those same people view all Jews.
just taking a couple of stabs here:
- There’s a reason why we call a Jewish lawyer a sheister.
- I’m going to guess that Virginians may not understand that one’s Jewishness in Israel isn’t determined by one’s religiousness or ‘minority’ mark as it is in the U.S.
'scuse me, but he is the prophet of Alllah
What’s the Muslim concept of God? Help me out. Where do Muslims go when they die?
We’re not talking about 1,700 years ago.
You must not watch a lot of media that invokes racial humor. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen criminals in movies or TV joke about “getting a Jew lawyer to get me off.” There’s nothing incompatible between thinking of someone as a sheister and at the same time respecting their acumen.
This doesn’t make any sense, has nothing to do with anything I’ve said. I will reinforce the concept that any respect Americans have for the Israeli military, at least in my personal anecdotal experience (which is all Argent Towers has offered up to support his hypothesis) does not impact or even associate with how those same people see “Jews” in general. In the consciousness of Americans I know, the stereotype of Jew lawyers/doctors/accountants is a totally different thing that Israeli special forces, and there isn’t any incompatibility in holding multiple views on the same religious group based on context.
I don’t disagree! These youngins nowdays have no idea!
but back to the topic at hand: whatever similarities Jews and Muslims had centuries ago seems to have largely faded in the context. I don’t see Muslims today acknowledging big G english God as GOD. It’s more of a, ‘You displease Allah’ instead of ‘you worship Him, too’.
You gotta love a debate in which everyone is just spouting anecdotes back and forth.
er…would I respect a mob boss? Yeah, I guess, but not in terms of morals, ethics, or standards. The concept of the Jewish sheister has been around for centuries. Towers was saying it doesn’t seem to have an effect on respect.
Again, it seems that when Jews get the dirty work done, we’re respected and demonized.
Replace Jews with pretty much any other group in history in that sentence and it is just as true. Do you feel like you are particularly special?