That you phrase this as “statues make people sad” shows that you really, really don’t get it.
I didn’t think I needed to say “check your privilege” after “Says you”, but apparently, it did need saying.
Racism fucking kills people. And I’m not talking about lynchings or murder by cop.
There’s a factory owner. His factory has a receiving department where the raw materials come in. It has a production department where parts are made. It has an assembly department where the finished product is put together. It has a shipping department that delivers the product to customers.
Apparently, it is wise for all of the employees to work in only one department, the most important department.
I once again refer you to this as a nice concise summary of the point I’m trying to make. MrDibble, I respect you as a poster and I know you have decades of experience with institutional racism that I cannot begin to imagine having lived through. Do you honestly think I’m coming across as opposing equal rights here? All I’m saying is that people have limited time and effort to expend on their chosen causes, and that doing so efficaciously is better than attacking symbology. If you really, genuinely think that makes me a racist, then please explain to me why, and I promise you I will listen in all intellectual honesty because I sincerely respect you as a person and as an advocate of true social justice.
That analogy is terrible. If there’s a department that makes people not die, and other departments don’t, then yes, that.
And I’d also prefer not to drop the side point that cannibalizing your friends is a bad idea. I’m being attacked here for supporting the idea that use of time on some causes is better than use of time on others, and the causes I’m advocating for are “helping people to stay alive.” I’d really like to know why that makes me evil. This pattern of behavior is bad and justifies what the bad people are saying about our causes, and I say “our” because, once again, I provide the obligatory I am not your enemy.
Where the fuck have I said you’re a racist?
I think you’re wrong on this, and the reason you’re wrong is apparently because you lack sufficient empathy to see these statues aren’t just symbols, but actual functioning engines of terror. But that doesn’t make you a racist. Just … whatever the the egg in the egg-and-bacon analogy of involvement-vs-commitment is.
Get off the cross. Or people might think you’re just here to make this all about you.
For what I think is the sixth time, I agree with this. I admit my original phrasing was flippant, but I also think that while these statues represent atrocities (which I also said), they’re less important than people being beaten in the streets, or dying because they don’t have healthcare, or struggling to feed their children because assholes think the Mexis are takin’ our jerbs. I do not agree that all injustices have equal priority, and I think there’s a lot of misguided effort going on that could be channeled to a more effective purpose.
And no, you didn’t necessarily call me a racist, but neither did I say that you did. I said that IF you got that impression of me, I would listen as to why. I appreciate you letting me know that you don’t think that. I’m sincerely sorry if I’m offending you here, but I’m trying to stand up for what I believe in, which is the human right to live.
But this symbology NEEDS attacking. Symbols are strong. They are also insidious. Think of the Nazi symbol, the Confederate flag, that god-awful MAGA hat even. Removing the statues is a good effort for the cause (and quite frankly I don’t know why you get to be the arbiter of what is or isn’t someone else’s worthwhile time and effort) even if it’s just a small step.
You put forth your effort, money, time, energy in your own way and leave others to do what fulfills their own needs.
People clearly might think that, but it’s not based on anything I’ve actually said. I’ve made this “about” the right to human life and dignity. I don’t know how many more times I have to explicitly say that. I can only assume that if people think I’m making it about me, it’s because they’re predisposed to think that about anything anyone says that disagrees with any single thing they think. That behavior is reactionary and bad. That’s the side point I’m mentioning.
With a few dumb exceptions (i.e. Grant), taking down the statues is working and inspiring a whole lot of people. They needed to come down and it’s long overdue. In some cases the local government is doing it, which is ideal, but when they drop the ball, I have no problem with this kind of civil disobedience that harms no one and the only property it harms is white supremacist glorifying property.
It appears, actually, that you’ve made this about your own view of the path to the right to human life and dignity.
I continue to agree with this. I don’t know how I’m failing to communicate that; I’ve explicitly stated it a number of times. You are exactly 100% right. I agree with every single word you have said here. The only points I am trying to make are that A) doing some good things is better than doing other good things, even if the other good things are also good, and B) there are NOT enough people focused on the most important good things, or the bad things that are happening multiple times every single day would not be happening. That is all. That is my entire point. I’m sincerely sorry I’m not apparently able to make it clear, but I don’t know what else I can do.
“I’m being attacked here” “why that makes me evil” “I am not your enemy”
Me, me, me!
My own view of the path to human life and dignity is that people being killed and beaten and denied healthcare and thrown into concentration camps is bad, and more important than symbology. Symbology of bad ideas is bad. It’s bad. It’s terrible. It’s horrible. It’s insidious. It inspires hatred and fear and speaks to a world in which human rights are for the majority and no one else. I get that. I get it. I do. But if I can choose to devote my limited resources to helping extant human suffering, or attacking a symbol however horrible it may be, I’m picking the former. And I firmly believe that is the correct choice, and will fight for it. We DO have to choose. Choose wisely. The mother whose children you save will thank you for it.
In your first post you said
Now you say you agree that statues must come down no matter who does it.
I have no idea what your point is, I’m afraid.
Where does “literally killing themselves because of racism” fit in your Hierarchy of Harm? Is that important enough for you?
Not that it matters what you think is important, mind you. What matters is what the people doing the pulling down think.
There are enough wrongs that need to be righted that we all can choose a path and not get in each other’s way. and, you know, people can actually do a little of this and a little of that, and all those little bits here and there add up.
You do what works for you.
Oh for Christ’s sake. I’m using myself as an example about how disagreeing with any single point of the current liberal zeitgeist gets one – not necessarily me, but anyone; I can find you a hundred other examples if you wish – attacked as some sort of opposition to the overall cause. I’m the most handy example. I admit I did say I was in tears, and at one point I was, because I’m being perceived as opposing the cause of social justice. I’m over it, but I really do care. It’s not about me, though. It’s about helping other people.
Keep softballing it as mere “symbology”, that’s really making me think you’re actually listening…
