Male Circumcision: Good Idea or unnecessary mutilation?

Thanks, Cranky - Sorry about the tone in the first one, but I was … well … cranky. Frustrated, I guess, because it seems that some people swear that they have thought everything through carefully, but they haven’t thought through (nor even looked for research on) the social issues. They go straight to anecdotal evidence, which seems a poor way to make a choice. You can still disagree with me on those points, and certainly your local environment and/or family may play a role, but at least think about the other side, rather than assume ( and rather than reject alternative views out-of-hand). I guess I wish people would examine their assumptions, though I know that is asking a lot. So I get upset, more about the method of analysis than the final decision. Maybe I expect too much, but I find that high expectations are met as often as low ones, so why not aim high?

Leah

I disagree with your basis, though your conclusion may be correct. Circumcision actually does not mean “removing the entire foreskin”, it has only come to imply that. It just means ‘to cut around’, not what or how much. The original rite is a blood rite, NOT a ‘remove the whole thing’ rite (blood shed during the process is considered holy). The original form is less severe, and was changed, possibly in reaction to the tendency (both in the Hellenistic and Hadriatic periods) to hide status as a Jew by training the foreskin forward. I’m betting they were still Orthodox at that point.

It was only when the peri’ah (laying bare the glans) was added as a second requirement of the bris milah that the whole foreskin was removed. Before that, it was possible to conceal the circumcision by ‘drawing the foreskin foreward’ (training it forward?), and, as I already noted, the addition of the peri’ah may have been in response to people hiding their status as Jews, especially during times of persecution (also not unusual for parents to choose not to circumcise during such periods). Since laying bare the glans was not an initial requirement, the amount initially removed was probably fairly small - there isn’t much that is not attached to the glans in most newborns, and actually, that part that is attached later develops into the most sensitive part (all of which would be retained in the old form). The only specific requirement for the degree of circumcision that I can find (in a general search of Jewish history/religion sites) is that the glans not be completely covered by the foreskin. SO it isn’t a ‘you are or you aren’t’ thing in the sense that either you remove the whole thing or you don’t remove the whole thing, it is a ‘you were cut in a proper ceremony at the proper time’ or ‘you were not cut at all’ - of course, the timing of the event is also critical to the meaning (too early makes it meaningless, but later can work okay).

The notes on the addition of the peri’ah comes from the Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion, New York and Oxford University Press, 1997.

So, if the mitsvah is from the command of G-d to … um, Abraham (I think), to have all males circumcised on the 8th day afer birth, does the mitsvah include or not include the rabbinical changes added later? I can see Orthodox people seeing the peri’ah as not part of the original command, but I don’t know if they would necessarily reject later rabbinical additions - so Orthodox Jews still might well require the full circumcision-with-peri’ah. But less observant Jews may well consider the older form sufficient. IMHO, your conclusion may well be correct, but I don’t think it is for the reasons you give.

I’m not sure what “otherwise qualified” means in this context. A Jew by birth is considered Jewish regardless of circumcision status. A Gentile who wishes to convert cannot do so without a full circumcision.

As a general rule, information contained in The Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion does not necessarily conform to Orthodox belief. The Talmud notes that peri’ah was not included in the original commandment to Abraham, but states that it was included in the commandment to Joshua, when the Jews first entered Israel.

I also don’t think your characterization of milah/periah is correct. However, I am myself not 100% certain what it is either, so I can’t really challenge you on this.

The statement that “blood shed during the process is considered holy” is absurd. (All this blood is promptly tossed in the garbage).

Sorry, the ‘blood shed being holy’ thing was from a long article written by a rabbi, discussing the reasons for the entire practice (it didn’t have the history though), so maybe I misunderstood, or maybe it was poorly worded… maybe he meant that blood being shed was part of the holy process, as in, if you found a method that made them not bleed, it wouldn’t qualify? (‘bloodshed’, not ‘blood-that-was-shed’) I’m not Jewish, and I’m hardly an expert on Jewish Law by any stretch of the imagination. Just trying to find info, and I’d welcome info from judeic law sources. I assumed my ref was a ‘general’ source, not a necessarily Orthodox source, btw, just was trying to look at the history of the practice, and that ref had something that seemed relevant to the history.

My inspiration for the question (or rather, the hijack) in the first place (read the end of my first post) was the couple I know who were offered the option of doing either ‘version’ of a circumcision (old form or new form), so clearly at least one Mohel is performing the ‘old’ one. I would think that this would come up somewhere for someone else… anyone? Cites would be helpful, too. There was no mention of any commandment to Joshua in Oxford ref, nor was there a date on when the second part of the law was added. Can you give the text of the command to Joshua? It might help clarify.

If you (or anyone here) can find someone (or a source) who/that can clarify my perception of milah/periah, please do so. I’m not arguing that I have it wrong, either, but I have no idea in what way I am wrong.