"Man! Them cats clap on the ONE and the THREE!"

[pulykamell]

@Ukulele_Ike

I listen exclusively to schottisches and mazurkas, so I only clap on the one and three.

If you’re clapping to the one and three for mazurkas, you’re doing it wrong.*

*Yes, I know you’re being facetious, but I just couldn’t resist. Mazurkas are in 3/4. I mean, sure, it is possible to clap on the one and three, but that’d be as weird as clapping on the one and three in a waltz.

[WordMan]

From the NYTimes Magazine this weekend. An article on Kamasi Washington, a jazz sax player who is featured on Kendrick Lamar’s To Pimp a Butterfly, and whose own jazz release is getting attention.

His father is a sax player Rickey Washington, and the following is shared:

When Kamasi first expressed a desire to play, his father sent him to church. ‘‘It’s the best place to learn,’’ Rickey said. ‘‘You play every week, and you’ve got to play a groove. It doesn’t come any other way but with a groove. They’re clapping on two and four, and you’re moving to the music. If you listen to Kamasi, you know what the groove is, because it’s right in his body.’’

A nice example of nurture.

[pulykamell]

Cool find. Church is one of the vectors I was considering. Not a whole lot of groove in Roman Catholic churches (and Lutheran and Anglican services I’ve attended), and the music is pretty much of the classical style, with one and three being the pulse, rather than the backbeat.

[monstro]

@delphica

You might want to check out the work of Kira Gaunt, who is a ethnomusicologist, and her academic work is mostly focused on the intersection of music, race, and gender. She’s firmly in the nurture camp on this issue, and (I am broadly summarizing here) her belief is that this is learned early – like baby and preschool age – and that while there is a lot of overlap between black families and white families and music, in general (again, speaking widely, about large demographics and not about any one individual experience) black families are more likely to sing/play more rhythmically complex songs to babies and small children, and are more likely to gently correct/instruct the kids at a younger age. It’s more than “growing up listening to a certain kind of music;” there’s another element of intentional intervention that is more likely to happen in black families (even when, in her research, black parents report not doing anything special in terms of instruction, they’re tending to compare themselves to other black families where this is the norm). So you’re looking at kids as young as 5 or 6 and can already see a difference in proficiency in this area between (large populations of) white kids and (large populations of) black kids. And I think because they are so young, it’s sometimes mistakenly read as nature.

From my personal experience, black families are also much more likely to encourage dancing in their young children. As soon as you can get up on two legs, you’re taught to express yourself through movement. And dancing is all about rhythm. A kid who is rhythmically-challenged is one who will struggle to dance.

There is a “nature” element to it at the individual level, however. I’ve always struggled with rhythm, despite receiving all the right cultural exposures and formal music education. I know enough not to clap on the downbeats, but that’s about it. So I do think some people just don’t have a knack for this stuff.

[pulykamell]

There actually is an article I remember reading recently that posits that some people do have “beat deafness” in a way that they have “tone deafness,” and that there is a genetic component to it. I just found it here..

[WordMan]

@monstro

From my personal experience, black families are also much more likely to encourage dancing in their young children. As soon as you can get up on two legs, you’re taught to express yourself through movement. And dancing is all about rhythm. A kid who is rhythmically-challenged is one who will struggle to dance.

There is a “nature” element to it at the individual level, however. I’ve always struggled with rhythm, despite receiving all the right cultural exposures and formal music education. I know enough not to clap on the downbeats, but that’s about it. So I do think some people just don’t have a knack for this stuff.

monstro - IIRC, you love music and have a good knowledge of a variety of very groove-oriented music. If I have any of that wrong, sorry. If right, what about that music do you connect to the most, if not the groove? Do you dance when you listen to James Brown?

[monstro]

@WordMan

monstro - IIRC, you love music and have a good knowledge of a variety of very groove-oriented music. If I have any of that wrong, sorry. If right, what about that music do you connect to the most, if not the groove? Do you dance when you listen to James Brown?

I love JB and most R&B. I love a song with a good beat.

When I say that I “struggle” with rhythm, I mean that I have hard time keeping rhythm, especially by dancing or body movements. I make Elaine Benes look like Janet Jackson. I’ve made white people say “girl, find the beat!” I hear beats that no one else can hear, apparently.

[dropzone]

@Frylock

What was this about?

Nzinga, Seated just wanted to laugh at the white folk, which is always fun. See any thread about Trump.

@Dorjan

Those are the ones with no excuse except just having no sense of rhythm.

(dropzone sighs while raising his hand) I have the sense of rhythm of a Catholic woman with ten kids.

As for the OP, I must quote Dr Chuck Berry, who said, two or three shows a day for many years, “It’s got a back beat, you can’t lose it, any old time you use it.” I mean, I can lose it, but I’m white.

[WordMan]

@monstro

I love JB and most R&B. I love a song with a good beat.

When I say that I “struggle” with rhythm, I mean that I have hard time keeping rhythm, especially by dancing or body movements. I make Elaine Benes look like Janet Jackson. I’ve made white people say “girl, find the beat!” I hear beats that no one else can hear, apparently.

That’s the source of my question: do you like music with a good beat because of the beat? If so, when you “can’t find it” do you think you’ve found it? Or: do you like the beat, know it when you hear it, but can’t translate that to physical movement to the beat? What goes missing between the song’s rhythm and your moves?

Sorry for putting you on the spot - not looking to do that, more just trying to understand.

[monstro]

@WordMan

That’s the source of my question: do you like music with a good beat because of the beat?

I don’t know. I mean, I love lots of songs that don’t have a good beat. I don’t intentionally seek out songs for their beats. The beat is just one selling point.

If so, when you “can’t find it” do you think you’ve found it?

I don’t think I would enjoy a song if I was constantly perplexed by the rhythm, so yeah.

Or: do you like the beat, know it when you hear it, but can’t translate that to physical movement to the beat?

Yeah to this too. I think I’ve got the beat and I start dancing, and then someone gently informs me that I’m “off”. I actually think I can feel it “accurately”. But it just doesn’t show, and I’m not aware that it’s not showing until someome tells me.

What goes missing between the song’s rhythm and your moves?

I don’t know, but I guessing it’s a timing thing.

[Zeldar]

Pardon me, Gang, but I couldn’t help but be reminded of Blacks Without Soul from Amazon Women on the Moon (1987) – a modern classic!

[gigi]

@monstro

When I say that I “struggle” with rhythm, I mean that I have hard time keeping rhythm, especially by dancing or body movements. I make Elaine Benes look like Janet Jackson. I’ve made white people say “girl, find the beat!” I hear beats that no one else can hear, apparently.

Yeah, the problem with “Dance Like No One’s Watching” is someone is watching, and will tell you about it. That’s why I have to confined mine to being home alone. :o

[WordMan]

Thanks monstro. Sounds like you have a sense of what is going on and enjoy music within that context. Win.

[monstro]

@gigi

Yeah, the problem with “Dance Like No One’s Watching” is someone is watching, and will tell you about it. That’s why I have to confined mine to being home alone. :o

I’ve had people laugh at me when I dance, telling me I dance like a white girl having a epileptic fit. It just makes me dance even more. I don’t care who sees me.

[BigT]

@delphica

You might want to check out the work of Kira Gaunt, who is a ethnomusicologist, and her academic work is mostly focused on the intersection of music, race, and gender. She’s firmly in the nurture camp on this issue, and (I am broadly summarizing here) her belief is that this is learned early – like baby and preschool age – and that while there is a lot of overlap between black families and white families and music, in general (again, speaking widely, about large demographics and not about any one individual experience) black families are more likely to sing/play more rhythmically complex songs to babies and small children, and are more likely to gently correct/instruct the kids at a younger age. It’s more than “growing up listening to a certain kind of music;” there’s another element of intentional intervention that is more likely to happen in black families (even when, in her research, black parents report not doing anything special in terms of instruction, they’re tending to compare themselves to other black families where this is the norm). So you’re looking at kids as young as 5 or 6 and can already see a difference in proficiency in this area between (large populations of) white kids and (large populations of) black kids. And I think because they are so young, it’s sometimes mistakenly read as nature.

Now that makes a lot more sense. The kids songs I remember from childhood tend to not have much syncopation on 2 and 4 unless you force it. And I remember a lot of clapping on 1 and 3 in church, even if it does sound better on 2 and 4.

So it’s culturally learned very early on. None of us actually need to listen to all that much music where 1 and 3 make more sense to clap on. Just hearing other people clap on those beats, and not be musically trained out of it (like I was).

[TBG]

This came up in an episode of the Monkees of all places. I don’t have a clip, but here’s a transcript. It’s not part of the zany story of the episode, more of a tag put on the end of the episode (there are a few of these, like one with Mike and Frank Zappa pretending to be each other)

Charlie Smalls (David Jones' Guest)