Thinking that anyone who disagrees with you is a moron, even in the hypothetical case that you are correct about an issue and they are not, is moronic in and of itself. Some of the greatest minds we know of today were possessed by gracious humans who would have been happy to tell you that they were often wrong. I’m not saying you are a moron, mind you, but it could be a clue.
Why would I be so foolish as to relinquish my access to the spoils of science while drinking polluted water and breathing dirty air? I like to clip my nails and use the internet. Maybe my phone will give me a brain tumor, but it’s so amazing that maybe it’s worth it.
I’ve never had a flu shot and don’t get the flu. Last time I had it was also in the 1980’s. Missed a week of school and felt miserable, but I think it was a fair trade for not having to go to school.
I’d just rather take the risk than get a shot every damn year. I hate needles, and no, I’m not gonna get over it. If it was a lifetime (or at least long term) vaccination, that’d be one thing, but I’m not getting stuck annually, no way no how.
I found out that on the phone with a hcp*spoiler, you might as well be at McDonald’s restaurants.
Plan B-Standing in line at the hcp, I got I received an appointment for a flu shot in 4 days.
Supposedly no $25. co-pay.
Assume Anthem covers the other costs.
Might be FREE.
But I work at the airport, and seen bed-bugs 
by the millions, make that billions.
I took the time over the phone to order three prescriptions, hcp said “cool”, and “go get 'em” at the pharmacy, what a croc-a-chit
Maybe I’ve quaffed a few too many donuts, but what are you talking about?
I don’t think that ANYONE who disagrees with me is a moron. I think that people who are convinced that vaccines are some conspiracy by the government and scientists is a moron. I think that people who deny the science that saves lives, makes the world a more habitable place, and solves important human problems is a moron.
So?
What could be a clue? That I disagree with you makes ME a moron? What was that you said again?
Given your earlier statements about living in thatched huts, I’m no longer sure what you’re trying to say.
By your own definition, you yourself are at MOST one false opinion away from being a moron. It’s just something to consider.
I haven’t said vaccinations are part of a conspiracy or denied that science saves lives. I know that there do exist such people, but you are jumping to that conclusion on the basis of assumptions, not anything I’ve said.
Rather than “stupidity”, it’s a lack of that critical thinking you rightly find important (even if you seem a bit confused about what critical thinking entails).
Rejecting a large body of convincing evidence that vaccines do not cause autism on the basis that science has not identified all the possible environmental triggers*, therefore “It’s gotta be the vaccines” does demonstrate an extreme lack of critical thinking.
I suggest that if you want to be taken seriously as being pro-vaccine but having reasonable doubts about certain vaccines, you need to stop using the tropes made infamous by antivaxers, another of which is “They wuz wrong before!” in reference to science.
Science (and specifically, medicine) is constantly reexamining facts and assumptions and making changes in accordance with the best evidence (unlike antivaxers and their alt med allies, who cling to disproven theories and bogus claims). It is fallacious to assume that since some elements of medicine are disproven over time, that one can shout down any others one dislikes on the basis that “my bizarre and illogical claims will be proven right one day, so there!”.
I do get a flu shot every year (it is a requirement for being a staff physician at one (but lamentably not all) of the hospitals I work at. This helps protects not only me but the patients and visitors with whom I come into contact. I to my knowledge have never had influenza, which is probably due at least in part to being immunized. I anticipate that before too long there will be more effect flu shots targeting core elements of the virus that do not change over time, allowing for long-term effective shots that do not need to be repeated annually. Until then, I like boosting my odds of not getting deathly ill from the flu with a vaccination that is extremely unlikely to cause any significant side effects.
*a reminder that one environmental trigger for autism that’s already been identified is rubella (German measles), which can be prevented through immunization.
In your opinion, what indications are there that I am confused about what critical thinking entails?
I have considered the issue of vaccinations in general, done cost-benefit analysis, examined the moral obligation we may or may not have toward other members of society, read about the efficacy of various vaccinations and potential side-effects and their likelihood of occurrence from reputable sources, discussed them with scientists and doctors, read scholarly summaries of some of the studies that have been done, and considered my own biases with regard to the subject. I would certainly not call myself an expert and make no claim to be of any use whatsoever as a source of information for others to determine their own best course of action with regard to vaccinations.
I have not made any sweeping simplistic statements about vaccinations and who should get them, unlike others on this thread.
Chefguy starts out with the antagonistic assertion that everyone should “man up,” march down to the clinic without “excuses” and get shots right now. Implication: only a whiny child will try to weasel out of this duty we all must unquestioningly perform. Yes, I get that the tone was humorous, but the message was clearly as stated.
WhyNot clarifies that only bonafide life-threatening egg allergies “count,” and that even hives caused by eggs “doesn’t count for most doctors.” Implication: in spite of reality - the vaccination cannot know who your doctor is and respond accordingly - we must not disobey the medical dictate. Only if our doctor says we may be exempt ought we do anything other than get our butts down to the nearest dispensary pronto.
jayjay’s doctor commands him to get the shot and he submits. Implication: do what your doctor says, it’s not like you have a choice about it.
Gamehat is perturbed. Some of his scientist coworkers don’t get vaccinated and they get sick more often. Implication: they are scientists, why don’t they believe the other scientists, who are, after all, SCIENTISTS?
Stranger On A Train reports a bad vaccine reaction involving two weeks of severe illness. WhyNot responds with sarcastic mockery and dismisses Stranger’s illness as coincidence. Implication: if you think something happened to you, you are probably confused. A stranger on the internet know what happened to Stranger better than Stranger him/herself. Stranger is not a Dr. Scientist, so could not possibly understand what really happened, poor fool. Later, WhyNot even chastises Stranger for mentioning getting sick after the vaccination, as ignorant others reading it might be swayed into not getting the vaccination.
LavenderBlue sees an assumption that can be made and leaps upon it, “helpfully” pointing out that one cannot get the flu from the vaccine. Implication: if someone thinks the vaccine made them sick, they MUST think it gave them the flu.
So does this really look like critical thinking at work to you? Or is it just that you agree with the opinion, so no need to consider anything else?
Person after person reports reaction to the vaccination and is bashed. No one has brought up the vaccination causing the flu or autism except as strawman arguments.
I pointed out that anti-vaxxers are not being convinced by the studies that say autism and vaccinations are not linked because no one is offering them an actual reason in its place. That’s just human nature and the fact that I recognize it does not mean I am one of them. I don’t think the anti-vaxxers even claim the flu vaccination is the problem from what I have read, so it’s completely beside the point, and I brought up the fact that scientists have been wrong in the past about what is safe and what isn’t because it’s true. If you want to say that science has concluded that something is safe, so it must be, pointing out other times they have said something is safe in the past and how it has undermined people’s confidence is not a “trope made famous by anti-vaxxers,” and thus can be discarded. I will continue to question studies and their conclusions while you science it up and march off to gulp down your pills, line up for your shots and eagerly await your next instructions. Don’t worry if you throw your shoulder out patting yourself on the back, they’ve got scientific medicinal treatment for that.
See previous post. Defending the idea that since we don’t know all the etiologic factors in autism, blaming vaccines is reasonable (despite all the contrary evidence) is not an example of critical thinking, even if you’re now backtracking and excusing it as “human nature”. Also:
You seem to have a problem with the concept that trained medical professionals have a better handle on the value of immunization than Joe Blow on the Internet. That doesn’t strike me as very logical either. And:
If by “safe” you mean “zero chance of any side effects”, no vaccines are not “safe”, nor are any medical interventions “safe” if perfect outcomes are demanded every time. Vaccines are still a hell of a lot safer than a case of influenza.
We’ve had many decades of research, testing and practical experience to demonstrate this. Given this extensive background, taking refuge in the idea that medicine was wrong before about something (do bring up Semmelweis or Barry Marshall and H. pylori, those are favorites of the antivax/altie contingent) so it’s reasonable to dismiss safe and effective prophylaxis against disease should seem ridiculous to anyone capable of critical thinking.
Yup, that’s why doctors wear long white coats, the better to cover up their jackboots. :rolleyes:
And giant wallets, amirite?
Why is it so difficult to convey the fact that I do not believe and have never believed that vaccinations cause autism?
I am not “backtracking” – if you think that I ever said that I believe vaccinations cause autism, you have misunderstood.
Plus, I’m not one year old. There is no risk of me acquiring autism at this point in my life, so I don’t even care. In a few years everyone will have autism, and it won’t be from the vaccinations, aliens, a conspiracy, “refrigerator mothers” (remember when the doctors said that?) or sitting too close to the TV. I’m sure one day scientists will figure it out, maybe even the future autistic scientists, so I’m not worried.
I already said that self-aware dumb people ought indeed to follow the lead of whatever prevailing science says to do. While it won’t always be correct, it will better their odds.
When you make statements like “vaccines are still a hell of a lot safer than a case of influenza,” I have to wonder what the heck you think you’re saying. It’s so vague that it is meaningless. What vaccinations? For whom? Without this information, what is the point other than vaccination cheerleading? With no citation of a study, I’m not feeling warm and sciency about this. It seems like you’re just making stuff up and assuming when you don’t articulate your claim properly.
Then you use biased language like “taking refuge” in the idea that medicine has been wrong before, implying that I’d somehow want it to be wrong. That makes no sense… Why wouldn’t I WANT correct answers and for medicine to be right all the time about everything so I had no reason to question it ever? I’d love to be able to trust that a well-informed Dr. Scientist was ready and able to dispense appropriate treatment for everything. Good medical care is the last thing I’d seek refuge from.
And you’re right, it would be ridiculous to dismiss safe and effective prophylaxis against disease, but questioning whether it truly is safe and effective is not ridiculous, even if the answer turns out to be yes, it is safe and effective.
There are so many straw men in your last post that I expect a fire marshal (complete with jackboots) will be paying you a visit.
There are at least semi-reasonable excuses for not getting a flu shot, including a severe egg allergy or unexplained bad reaction to a past flu shot, not falling into a higher-risk group* or having contact with someone in such a group, and the fact that flu vaccines tend not to be as efficacious as other vaccines especially in years where antigen match in not optimal.
The problem is that I don’t see you emphasizing these reasonable points, but instead falling back on suspicions and resentments that feature prominently in the antivax playbook. If you don’t like being lumped with these people (and what intelligent person would?), then I suggest you steer clear of such tactics.
*as always, it should be noted that the “I’m young and healthy so I’m not at risk” argument ignores the fact that some flu strains (like the recent H1N1, and the monster flu of 1918-19) disproportionately struck down young and healthy people, whose immune systems went haywire due to what is thought to be “cytokine storm”.
Really? Can you point out these strawmen? I have no idea what you are referring to.
I don’t need an excuse to not get a flu shot. I have weighed the pros and cons and decided against it. It has nothing to do with anti-vaxxers, and the reason I should not be grouped with them is because I do not oppose vaccination. As you may have read in my previous post, I have received many vaccinations and have vaccinated my child beyond the school requirements. I even have the yellow fever vaccination, which most of you probably do not. I keep my tetanus vaccination up to date, rather than waiting until I am injured and getting a booster. I have considered a rabies vaccination, but it’s an extremely expensive series of shots that still require further shots if you are bitten, so I decided against it.
I pay out of pocket for vaccinations not covered by insurance, and unlike the flu shot, they’re not cheap, but I consider it worth the expense.
However, since I have an autoimmune disorder that will finish up my thyroid and probably move on to my heart and lungs, debilitating me and finally killing me, I’d like to put that off for as long as possible. Doctors and scientists don’t know enough about autoimmune disorders to say what causes them, triggers when they begin their attack, which organs they will go for next, or what their rate of destruction depends on. They don’t even claim to. Sure, they would no doubt claim that the flu shot is not contraindicated for people with autoimmune disorders, but that’s because no one has yet proven that they are harmful in this case, NOT because someone has proven that they are not. See the difference? I prefer to take my chances and hope to avoid the flu without the vaccination, which is only considered to be 60% effective anyway.
Wow, looks like you’ve got us there. Except that it doesn’t make sense for people to be vaccinated against yellow fever unless they’re living in or traveling to a yellow fever-endemic region.
You know, if you just mentioned having a serious autoimmune disorder and worrying about flu shots (even if there’s no evidence they or other immunizations cause or worsen such diseases), few if any posters would take much issue with you. Instead, we get a parade of illogical tropes now topped by “prove it isn’t so”.
Not exactly a heartening demonstration of critical thinking…
I got it because I traveled to such an area, not for fun or to win the vaccination game. I brought it up because I am more vaccinated than the norm, and thus am clearly not an anti-vaxxer.
And I did mention my autoimmune disorder, many posts ago, and I’m not asking anyone to prove anything. It has not been proven to be safe for people with my autoimmune disorder. It also has not been proven to be unsafe. Thus it is not contraindicated. This is unsurprising, because the nature of autoimmune disorders and the dearth of information about them would make such a thing quite difficult to do reliably.
Rather than concern yourself with my critical thinking, perhaps you should work on your own reading skills. Don’t just skim over the words making up stuff to fill in anything you miss, really concentrate, and don’t hesitate to go back over any parts that you didn’t get the first time through.
Getting mine on the 22nd. The company offers them free if one will sign up in advance. They are kind enough to send out emails reminding people to sign up, so people like me, who work at night, still can get the shot - even if it play merry hell with my sleep that day. Unfortunately there are no donuts provided, only strange looks and questions about why I’m not home asleep.
Perhaps you can make your position more clear by answering this question: given your current set of beliefs and hostility to doctors supposedly ordering you what to do: if you had it to do all over again, would you get the same immunizations for yourself and family?
Well, I definitely wish I’d kept better records. Between moving, changing doctors, etc. we may have gotten duplicates for no good reason.
I might, where applicable, opt for titers instead of potentially unnecessary extra shots. That’s what I do now for my dog, as he is elderly and has occasional idiopathic seizures. It’s expensive, but he is precious beyond any financial cost. I would also get no more than one vaccination at a time, spacing them out by a few weeks.
I don’t have any hostility toward doctors, I just don’t think they are omniscient or as concerned about my health as I am.
Actually, in the interest of science, I should skip all of mu past vaccinations, so I can see whether it makes any difference.
I have little to add, except that I have a doctorate in immunology. My thesis had the word “vaccine” in the title, though admittedly vaccines are not particularly relevant to what I do now. I still work in immunology, at a (gasp!) pharmaceutical company. My kids, 2 and 4, were vaccinated for the flu last week. I’m getting mine this week, as I do every year.