Man up, people: flu shots are here.

Here is a link to a study about vaccinations and autoimmune disorders:

From the abstract:
“Infectious agents contribute to the environmental factors involved in the development of autoimmune diseases possibly through molecular mimicry mechanisms. Hence, it is feasible that vaccinations may also contribute to the mosaic of autoimmunity.”
Also:
"Vaccines are a prototypic source for natural immune stimulation, but may be involved in pathogenic disease in the setting of aberrant immune system function. Possibly, the burden on the immune system resulting from simultaneous multiple vaccines and even the different types of vaccines may also be an overwhelming challenge in the autoimmune prone individual (Shoenfeld et al., 2008). In this review, we discuss the evidence for the development of autoimmune diseases following infections and vaccinations.

While vaccinations are generally safe, warranted and have virtually eradicated endemic diseases and probably lessened morbidity and mortality, a question arises regarding the evaluation of possible autoimmune phenomena in vaccinated individuals."

The paper addresses both the possibility of developing an autoimmune disorder post-vaccination (with the vaccination acting as a trigger in a prone individual), and how autoimmune disordered people may react to vaccinations. It’s by real Dr. Scientists, not random folks on the internet or MTV VJs.
It’s a pretty interesting read, but if you don’t enjoy that sort of thing, just know that the conclusion was that:
“Perhaps, the assessment of autoantibody and HLA status prior to immunization will serve as a marker for individuals at risk. More research is required to identify those individuals who may develop autoimmune diseases following immunizations. It is not clear if genomics or proteomics will reveal the individuals with an increased risk to develop autoimmune phenomena.”

Perhaps that single flu shot I got did indeed trigger my autoimmune disorder, or it may, as I have suspected, been the flu that I got in spite of the vaccination. Regardless, I’m sure it would eventually have manifested anyway.

This isn’t how satire works, you know…

And if people around you get the flu because you were careless, then I don’t want to finish this sentence outside of the pit. Alternatively: if you get polio, you get polio. :rolleyes: You should just go get the shot. It’s not just for you, it’s for everyone around you, especially any around you who are young, old, or immunocompromised.

We “obediently line up” because there are very few more morally straightforward actions you can take for societal good that simultaneously help you as well. We trust doctors because they’ve done pretty well so far with everything else, and also because they’re trained professionals. We understand that it’s more reasonable to put our trust in actual scientific studies rather than personal anecdotes when it comes to things like this, because personal anecdotes are oh so often misleading.

I guess I will, knowing that I’m not acting as a disease vector for those around me. :smiley:

You know, I’m stuck thinking about your usertitle, and I’d love to make a joke about your location as well. :rolleyes:

In the interest of ethics, there are damn good reasons why a vax vs. antivax study is completely unethical and irresponsible.

Actually getting polio is not necessarily a big deal at all. The vast majority of cases have no symptoms whatsoever,

We are a few hundred cases a year from wiping that scourge off the face of this planet, and face hurdles like armed extremists killing vaccine workers because of fears that they are Western spies. At this point, every goddamned case is a big deal and one too many.

More on that subject from Kolga:

The One Study, or why the anti-vaccine movement doesn’t really understand science

April 7, 2013 at 11:30pm
Multiple studies in multiple countries using multiple research models and multiple research groups, with multiple funding sources, have found no link between vaccines and autism. This is also true for a link between vaccines and ADHD, asthma, diabetes, auto-immune disorders, and the various other conditions that anti-vaccine propagandists attempt to link to vaccinations.

Every one of these studies has been dismissed by those anti-vaccine propagandists as having the wrong funding source, the wrong research design, the wrong focus, not separating out antigens from other vaccine ingredients, separating antigens from other vaccine ingredients inappropriately, not testing this, or that or something else.

The anti-vaccine movement wants ONE study. The One Study To Rule Them All. The One Study that tests every possible aspect of every vaccine.

This is basically what the AVers are asking us to do.

  1. Eliminate the use of all vaccines immediately in every country on the planet. Immediately. Regardless of any public health issues currently in existence.

  2. Randomly sample an acceptable number of children for each experimental and control group for each group discussed below.

The numbers in each group would need to be in the hundreds or thousands to satisfy statistical requirements for validity and significance, and would have to include children from every country, every ethnicity, every socio-economic status, with every possible genetic combination from parents, and of every possible health history based on parental family health. Anti-vaccine propagandists have rejected studies with 3000 or more subjects, so each group below would need to contain huge numbers in order to satisfy them. But then again, many of them accept 12 subjects (the number in Andrew Wakefield’s fraudulent study) as valid, so who knows?

Anti-vaccine propagandists are fond of saying “there are plenty of unvaccinated kids already, just use them!” You cannot use pre-existing groups who selectively vaccinate or do not vaccinate at all, because research has shown that these parents have certain differences from other parents, and those pre-existing differences would be a confounding variable in the study. To do a credible study of the kind that the anti-vaccine propagandists are demanding, you MUST randomly sample children, and then you MUST randomly assign them to the groups below. Parents would have no choice about this.

  1. Obtain permission from parents of children in each group to administer an injection into their child. The parents and children will not know what injection the child is receiving. The parents would not be allowed to have their children receive any injection from any other source, to avoid contamination of the data. Some children in the study would be completely unprotected from any disease outbreak, and their parents would be unaware of whether or not the children were unprotected.

  2. The injection received may contain any of the following configurations:
    a. Just the antigen, in saline.
    b. Just saline. This comparison (or control, in scientific terms) group would be necessary for every single group involved in the study. No one in this group would receive any aspect of any vaccine ever, just injections of saline.
    c. Just one ingredient of the vaccine (i.e., formaldehyde), in saline.
    d. Two or more of the ingredients, in various combinations (i.e., formaldehyde and the antigen, formaldehyde and the aluminum salts, the antigen and the aluminum salts, etc.). For example, according to the CDC pink book, the MMR-II vaccine contains these ingredients:
    i. Vitamins
    ii. amino acids
    iii. fetal bovine serum
    iv. sucrose
    v. sodium phosphate,
    vi. glutamate
    vii. recombinant human albumin
    viii. neomycin
    ix. sorbitol,
    x. hydrolyzed gelatin,
    xi. chick embryo cell culture
    xii. WI-38 human diploid lung fibroblasts

So, starting with the first ingredient on the list, we’d have to have a group that received every single vitamin injected, every single vitamin in combination with every single other vitamin, in combination with multiple of the other vitamins, etc. Let’s say there are four different vitamins (A, B, C, D). We’d have to have an A only group, a B only group, a C only group a D only group, an A/B group, an A/C group, an A/D group, a B/C group, a B/D group, a C/D group, an ABC group, an ABD group, an ACD group, a BDC group, and an ABCD . That’s 15 comparison groups for four ingredients. Then, we’d have to have a group for each vitamin in combination with each other ingredient – vitamin A combined with sucrose, B with sucrose, D with sucrose, etc. Then we would have to test each other ingredient in various combinations with other ingredients. Again, thousands of groups, each having hundreds or thousands of children to cover all combinations mentioned above.

The above breakdown of possible combinations would have to be repeated for every vaccine, for every booster, and for every possible combination of boosters.

  1. Follow every single child in every single group throughout the course of their entire lifetime (which, with current life expectancy, can be 70-80 years in developed countries), monitoring every medical/health condition that develops, and comparing those rates for each and every group above. If a single of the thousands of study groups lost a single participant (through moving, withdrawal, death, etc.), the Avers would declare the entire study null and void, even though such attrition is to be expected, and is controlled for in the study design.

  2. Compare each group above for every possible illness or medical/health condition.

  3. For each and every group mentioned above, we’d have to create a control group in which the children received no injection at all, of anything. No saline, no antigen, nothing.

  4. Remember that the anti-vaccine movement wants each vaccine tested individually, THEN in combination. So, we’d have to have one generation of children receiving the above breakdown of ONE vaccine over an entire lifetime, then another generation of children receiving the above breakdown of ANOTHER vaccine over an entire lifetime, etc., until all vaccines have been tested individually. Then and only then do we start testing vaccines with boosters. Then after that, vaccines in combination, but only two at a time. Then three at a time. This requirement would mean that the study that would fit the criteria demanded, the One True Study, would last until approximately the heat death of the sun.
    This doesn’t even get into the ethics of the various groups, the sampling difficulties, or the enormous amounts of money that would be required (money that could not come from any government, any governmental agency, any institution of higher education, or any scientist who’s ever done vaccination research in their career).

At this point, it should be apparently that such a study is not possible.

It’s also not necessary.

Various studies have addressed various aspects of each of the embedded questions in the above scenarios, and in combination, those answers address the concern of the anti-vaccine movement. For example, one ingredient used in vaccines are aluminum salts (not elemental aluminum, as is claimed). These are used as an adjuvant, to create a stronger immune response so that less antigenic material is required. The safety of these adjuvants has been well established (Adverse events after immunisation with aluminium-containing DTP vaccines: systematic review of the evidence - PubMed). That’s just one meta-analysis of the studies of the safety of one ingredient. It’s not part of The One Study that anti-vaccine propagandists want, though, so they reject it.

Think of the studies as a jigsaw puzzle. The puzzle isn’t one piece. It’s many pieces that fit together, making a total picture. The total picture on vaccinations is that they are safe and save lives.

Science isn’t about The One Study. It’s about ALL the studies.

The approximately one in two hundred risk of serious side effects from a case of polio is far greater than the serious risks from any vaccine on the market. The smallpox vaccine was considered highly dangerous and it had a one a million risk of smallpox. People feared polio and for damned good reasons. It is disgusting the damned disease has not been eradicated from the face of the earth.

My post got posted without the rest of it…
Actually getting polio is usually not a big deal at all. The vast majority of cases have no symptoms whatsoever, then there are plenty of people with only flu-like symptoms. You may actually have already had polio and be completely unaware of it.
If people around you get the flu from you, it is not “because you were careless,” it’s because of the flu virus. There is a limit to our obligation to remain healthy and you have chosen to draw the line here. A cold could kill an immunocompromised person, and not getting enough sleep depresses the immune system of an otherwise healthy person, making them more susceptible to illness. If I don’t get enough sleep and catch a cold, which spreads to someone with weak immunity and they die, is that my fault? Is not getting enough sleep a selfish antisocial jerky action?
Doctors have not done “pretty well so far with everything else.” What an absurd statement. Doctors make mistakes often and are working with only partial knowledge. This is not a criticism of the medical profession, and I am sure most are doing the best they can, but nobody fully understands the human body at this time, so there is a lot of guessing and playing the odds, not hard and fast correct answers. Most doctors see dozens of patients a day, each with their own symptoms and physiological quirks. To make a perfect assessment of each individual’s situation and advise accordingly is unrealistic and impractical.
You speak of “putting faith in scientific studies,” but how many of those are you keeping up with? How many is your doctor? When do you think they have time to do that very thoroughly? They aren’t wizards, you know.

I’m definitely pro-polio vaccination and anti-polio.
How can every case be a big deal though, when we might both be sitting here with polio right now and have no idea whatsoever?
People are often blasé about the flu, because they think that even if they get it, they will probably be fine, which is true. Saying “you wouldn’t say that about polio” as an argument to get vaccinated, is thus insufficient, since of you get polio, you will also probably be fine.
I want people to get vaccinated against polio of course, because I want polio to go away forever. The flu isn’t going to work that way because of the way it mutates.

I suspected it was only a matter of time until AnaMen jumped the antivax shark. But thanks for making it clear-cut.

Polio “not a big deal”; “plenty of people with only flu-like symptoms”. Uh-huh - why bother vaccinating over such a tiny piffle?

"In the late 1940s to the early 1950s, in the United States alone, polio crippled around 35,000 people each year making it one of the most feared diseases of the twentieth century. By 1979 the country became polio free (thanks to vaccines)"

Buying in to the “too many too soon” argument is another giveaway.

As for autoimmune disorders: “Hence, it is feasible” is not a confirmation of vaccines causing the diseases attributed to it by antivaxers. The scientific literature makes it clear that with the exception of rare instances (such as transient low platelets after MMR vaccination in 1/30,000 recipients*), autoimmune diseases have not been linked to vaccines despite ongoing surveillance.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/111/3/653.full.pdf
http://image.thelancet.com/extras/02art9340web.pdf

*even here, it is far more likely to get autoimmune destruction of platelets due to rubella or measles infection.

I’m just going to post this here, again.

Just because.

I fear you have again missed my point. We should “bother” to vaccinate against polio regardless of the fact that most of the time polio is not serious. Obviously, sometimes it is very serious, no one could legitimately dispute that. And obviously, I don’t want anyone to suffer from paralytic polio symptoms, regardless of their rarity. Via vaccination, wiping out polio is quite possibly an attainable goal.
Wiping out the flu via vaccination is not within sight. The virus mutates very quickly, and high vaccine compliance is not going to make the flu a thing of the past any time soon unless there is a game-change in the flu vaccination. The vaccination is only 60% effective, for one thing, and building up “herd immunity” over time is not really an option because of the rapid mutation. As nice as it would be to get rid of the flu entirely, it’s not on the horizon at the moment.

Spacing out vaccinations is something I would do because it has non-zero potential benefit and no real cost beyond minor inconvenience, not because I have “bought into” anything.
You are wrong about the autoimmune disorders and should read the study I linked to. I can put others up as well that confirm that there are already established links between vaccination and particular autoimmune disorders. That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t get vaccinated. The fact that there exists a group of crackpots and a cadre of junk pseudoscience that oppose vaccinations does not mean that anyone that considers skipping a vaccination is one of them.

Here is another relevant passage from the conclusion of the study I cited before:
“A most probable causality occurred between exposure to swine flu vaccine and the development of GBS. In addition, MMF occurred following exposure to aluminum containing adjuvant. Vaccines, like infections, activate immune mediated mechanisms to induce a protective effect. Hence, a complex vaccine may theoretically be more immunogenic than a simple vaccine. Vaccines harbor added complex agents, for example, adjuvants including aluminum, which may induce autoimmune disease. Preservatives are more often found in viral vaccines compared to bacterial vaccines suggesting that the preservatives may be the inciting culprits (Israeli et al., 2009).”
GBS = Guillain-Barre Syndrome and MMF = Macrophagic myofasciitis.
Remember how Guillain-Barre was brought up earlier as a contraindication for the flu shot? That’s because it is actually scientifically and medically acknowledged already that there is a connection.
It’s an autoimmune disease, in case that’s not clear.

Ooh, read that piece and loved it. Good work, Kolga!

Your referencing junk pseudoscience is ironic considering that you’ve bought into “macrophagic myofasciitis” as an autoimmune disease supposedly caused by vaccination. MMF is not even a recognized disorder, it’s just a microscopic tissue marker indicating the person once had a vaccination at that spot.

*"…the persistence of aluminium-containing macrophages at the site of a previous vaccination is not associated with specific clinical symptoms or disease.

“Results of animal studies conducted in monkeys1 and rats that looked at long-term persistence of aluminium and histopathologic changes at the vaccine injection site, as well as comparative studies of macrophagic function in patients with MMF and healthy subjects, further support the idea that MMF represent a simple marker of vaccination with long-term persistence of aluminium at the injection site and local inflammatory response to it, without other symptoms or consequences.”*

Wonder how many more antivax tropes you’re going to reel off while protesting that you’re really pro-vaccine. :dubious:

…Are you fucking serious? Like, really? Look, this is like nitpicking Mother Theresa’s argument on why child rape is bad. I don’t give a shit what you have to say, you’re putting yourself on the other side of that argument, and that instantly brands you as either a troll or incredibly unwise. You’re basically saying, “Eh, polio ain’t that bad”. And that is really, really, really dumb.

When there’s a largely functional vaccine, and it’s possible to prevent the flu in most cases with it? Yes! It is due to carelessness! And allowing disease vectors to stay open for no reason beyond sheer stubbornness and slight discomfort is utterly amoral and antisocial.

If I compare the collective unintentional removal of “pure” whites through interbreeding and outbreeding to the holocaust, does it make me look more like Curly or more like the monster from Young Frankenstein? :rolleyes: Stupid comparison is fucking stupid, and if I have to explain why, I’m gonna blow a gasket.

Yes. But you’re throwing the baby out with the bath water when you ignore the actual knowledge imparted. When you ignore that vaccines are tried and tested, and that the flu vaccine does in fact work for the vast majority of cases. The human body is not a mystery. It’s a puzzle with some pieces missing. And once again, you’re bizarrely picking nits for what is unequivocally the wrong side of the argument. It makes you look like a tool. And you really don’t understand why people are pegging you as “anti-vax”?

Fortunately, because AnaMen cannot properly punctuate a post, I’ve had a great disincentive to read them.

It’s like I’ve been inoculated against posts with shortages of carriage returns.

Thank you, that’s very much appreciated :slight_smile:

Because LavenderBlue is reluctant to toot her own horn, I’ll return the favor and copy a post here that she wrote regarding the vaccine and science denialists’ inability to understand or learn from history:

Condemned to Repeat It or Why Anti-Vaxxers Don’t Really Remember History (note form)

July 20, 2013 at 9:09am

Everything has a history to it. You, the salt you sprinkled on your French fries the other day, the street you crossed a few minutes ago.

So do vaccines. The anti-vax brigade would have you believe that vaccines were made up for pharm company profits and little else. Nothing could be further from the truth. For much of human history to be a mother was to be the mother of at least one dead baby. Or more likely three or four or five dead babies. Babies were born and then they died. They died sometimes from the reasons babies die today: from congenital diseases or from negligence or from parental abuse.

But mostly they died from vaccine-preventable diseases.

Smallpox alone took the lives of over four hundred million people before it was finally erased from contemporary memory. Pertussis took the lives of one in two hundred and fifty babies who caught it. Diphtheria shook the life from over a hundred thousand people in America alone as recently as the 1920’s. Polio, measles, rubella, mumps – they all killed babies by the hundreds and thousands each year. Measles still kills over a hundred thousand children today in the world where the numbers have finally been falling due to massive vaccine efforts.

When those diseases didn’t kill, they maimed. Vaccine-preventable diseases made people deaf or blind or paralyzed or brain dead. Measles can take bits of your hearing. Smallpox got into people’s eyes and made them blind. Polio was a notorious thief of people’s freedom of movement. Someone could wake up one day and find them couldn’t move their legs or couldn’t breathe or couldn’t use their hands from polio an hour later. Pertussis carries a one in a hundred risk of brain damage in little babies. Congenital rubella syndrome led to an epidemic of children made blind, deaf and mentally retarded even before they had been born.

Today we hear there’s an epidemic of vaccine damaged children. Any rational person can find no evidence for this assertion. Vaccines do not cause autism or type I diabetes or ADHD or asthma as I pointed out in the book. They haven’t been linked to psychiatric problems or mental illness or brain damage.

You know what they really have been linked to? A decrease in the number of dead children. A decrease in the number of children blind, deaf or paralyzed. A decrease in the number of children who have had their mental promise stolen by vaccine-preventable diseases.

That’s exactly what history tells us happens without vaccines: dead babies. Maimed babies. Deafblind babies. A generation of needless suffering imposed on our most vulnerable societal members. That’s what we’ll have back if we stop vaccinating. Even if we tear down the safety net of herd immunity just a little and partially stop vaccinating that is what we’ll have: vaccine-preventable diseases in the immune-compromised, those who do not seroconvert and babies who cannot be vaccinated against many vaccine preventable diseases.

I asked those who are against vaccines what vaccines do you want to do away with and what vaccine-preventable diseases do you want back? I ask it again. I ask it in name of history. Because that’s where the real answer to these questions lies: in the historical memory that is our common heritage. It is bad enough to refuse to remember it. It’s unforgivable to ask us to repeat it.

Hypotheses generally are built upon existing empirical data. That’s why I specified uninformed supposition. In logic and math you can learn pretty cool things just by altering the fundamental axioms of your thought experiments, but when it comes to science, we must abide, unfortunately, by the physical constraints of the universe.

If you’re saying that people are too dumb to understand that in spite of the fact that most polio cases are asymptomatic and do not result in long-term damage they still should get vaccinated, and thus the actual truth about polio must never be discussed, I disagree. A lot of people are not aware of the fact that polio is only detrimental in a minority of cases. Are you really advocating that this ignorance should be preserved? Am I spoiling Christmas for the kiddies by telling them there’s no Santa and now they’ll be brats all year?
I never said that polio was NOT a big deal. I said that getting it is not NECESSARILY a big deal, which is actually quite similar to the flu. It is sometimes a very big deal for some people. If we can eradicate polio completely via vaccination and the vaccination is extremely low-risk, then we should vaccinate.
The current flu vaccination is not going to eradicate the flu. You say it “works for the vast majority of cases,” but 60% is not a vast majority. Even if we left the compliance rate out of the equation and forcibly vaccinated everyone simultaneously, the flu will carry on, mutating and spreading. One day there may be a flu vaccination that is effective enough to wipe out the flu, but today is not that day.
When you state that “stubbornness and [wanting to avoid] slight discomfort” are the only reasons people would not vaccinate, you’re setting yourself up to fail in your quest for Total Vaccination Compliance. Whether or not to get vaccinated is a binary choice, but the motivations leading up to the decision are not so simple.

Sometimes I post from a small screen, and the resulting display is unpredictable. I apologize for any difficulties this presents.

Equating polio to the flu is an ignorant and idiotic comparison. Influenza, as dangerous as it can be, does not leave tens of thousands of paralyzed children in its wake (as occurred in 1952).

You need to do some reading apart from antivax websites.