And Greg Maddux too. No evidence he was clean either.
And Mario Mendoza. He was totally on something.
There’s no absolutely convincing evidence that anyone, ever, was clean, for all that. But you have evidence against these guys that is far more sufficient to satisfy me.
I agree with that. There was a lot of performance enhancing drugs, but who? The numbers were ridiculous . We know it was going on but we have no proof to damn any single player. No one was stupid enough to supply absolute proof. The ones that admitted it should be banned from the hall. The others, you have to pretend they are clean.
First of all, I think the voters should be allowed to decide. No bans.
Secondly, your own statement proves why. Rafael Palmiero never admitted to usuing steroids, so you’re saying he SHOULDN’T be banned; but Barry Bonds, who did (more or less) admit to it, should be banned. I don’t understand that at all. Palmiero was actually caught and suspended for it; he shouldn’t be banned, but Bonds should? That makes no sense.
Why not let the voters sort all this out? Christ knows the Hall of Fame’s a bit screwed up anyway; George Kelly’s in the Hall of Fame but Tim Raines isn’t, Lord help us.
The sense of it is some level of proof. Does Clemens trainer saying he used constitute proof? Does Anderson saying Bonds did, reach the level of proof? Do we need a damning blood test or do we accept hearsay. With a high level of proof we let in McGwire and Bonds. With a stiffer level we practically skip a generation.
I’m not sure that using a legal substance which was allowed by the rules should be grounds for being banned from the hall. I’m guessing virtually every player used legal, allowed substances at the very least.
We should have a special wing of the hall for players from this generation only. Perhaps it should be a wing that requires parents permission to visit.It is hard to ignore Bonds numbers. He simply hit more homers than any other player did, both by season and career.A hall that ignored that would only be a partial hall.,ignoring the Giant accomplishments of our era.
We’ve been over this. While baseball had no interest in enforcing its own policies, these steroids were against the rules.
Then supply us with a comprehensive list of users we can ban. It is only suspicion. I have a pretty good idea who used. The first time I saw McGwire and Canseco ,I was sure they were juicing. That does not hold up in court though. What level of suspicion constitutes proof? You can only ban those who admitted it. That is few .
Wait…seriously?
I never proposed a ban.
No matter how many vials of Bonds’ blood turn up and how extensive his dealings with Balco were, and no matter how obvious McGwire’s admissions by omission were, you could call them suspicion if you wanted. At the end of the day it’s still very obvious these people used steroids.
We’re talking about the baseball hall of fame, not court.
Says who?
This is where I disagree. No one has a pretty good idea who used. Again look at the players who actually failed a drug test or were mentioned on the Mitchell report as likely users. Those players do not match any pre-conceived notion of what juiced players .look like.
General Question
If Sammy Sosa admitted tomorrow to trying steriods once or twice but not liking them would you vote for him for the Hall of Fame (assuming you find his stats worthy?
Andy Pettitte goes 20-5 each of the next 5 seasons with a 2.50 ERA. You voting for him?
Yes, seriously. It’s from the same Rick Reilly column VarlosZ linked to.
The mind boggles. Reilly then goes on to say he doesn’t think Sosa used steroids because he’d stayed healthy… and of course in 2004 he missed 35 games due to injuries, and then he missed 60 games in 2005, didn’t play in 2006, missed 50 games in 2007 and didn’t play in 2008 either.
That’s fantastic.
Only the people interested in peace, justice and the American way. You can not punish people for suspicion. As I said, I have a good idea who used. But there are some that would be a big surprise. There are marginal players who used just to have some kind of career at all. There appears to a disagreement whether Sosa used. I think it is obvious. Statistical analysis makes it clear. But ,while he got bigger, he did not get Bonds/Canseco big. But aberrations in production make it clear to me.
Do you realize how completely at conflict these two statements are?
It’s “truth, justice and the American way.” 'Cause we’re trying to get at the truth here. Like I said, though, we’re not talking about a court of law, so we’re not working with the standards a prosecution has to work with.
Yes, that’s absolutely true. The Mitchell Report bore that out.
Sosa and Bonds were about the same weight, if yearbook listings and Reilly are to be believed.
Yes, but some are so obvious. But a few show it a lot less. I think Sosa was a user. You get stronger and have better bat speed. Very soon his bat speed dropped and his blasts did not go as far. Yet, we argue about him.
My assumption is everybody used something. It may be close to true. HGH,speed and blood doping are not all as obvious as steroids. We notice the guys who were overdosing.But some were smarter and dabbled to get a little help.
The entire era should have an asterisk and a separate room at the hall.
Cite?
The substance Bonds is accused of taking was not a steroid.
From what I have read, it was perfectly legal for him to use, both by baseball rules, and the laws of the United States.