Alex Sanchez, welcome to the hall.
Yeah, steroids really fucked up the game, didn’t they?
It would be unfortunate if we were to reward those who indulged in them.
I think the fact that baseball is alive and well disputes the notion that anything fucked it up.
It would be more unfortunate to punish innocents on lackluster evidence.
No. Andy Pettitte tried this line of defense last year, as if enhanced workouts and faster recovery from workouts give you a competitive advantage, but a faster comeback from injury does not. It’s ridiculous, and difficult to prove. You also (unintentionally) changed an important word from Carrol’s piece: McGwire didn’t use steroids “only to come back from injury.” Carroll suggests he “started [using] to try and recover from the plantar fasciitis.” That describes why he began using steroids, but does not suggest he stopped when he had recovered. In McGwire’s case that looks incredibly unlikely.
Marley, what are your thoughts on Carl Pavano?
We want players to do what ever they can to come from injury. If they don’t they are weak, lazy, and apathetic. Owens is a hero for returning in the Super Bowl. Sheets is likely to have more surgery. Want to read the comments of fans on him? Or Mark Prior or Harden or any number of guys who don’t come as quickly and as well as we think they should.
Reportably LT wouldn’t take a cortisone shot to improve his ability to play in the playoffs. Is this a negative or a positive? Do you think Charger fans are more likely to consider him selfish or noble? The guy wouldn’t take a drug to come back faster.
With the attitude be have bestowed upon players, I think it more than a little sanctimonious for us to now say how could you take drugs to come back faster, because technically they were kind of against the rules. We had no punishment or enforcement, everyone actively looked the other way, and we all complained mightily if a player didn’t you don’t come as quickly as others have. What exactly did you expect players to do?
I did leave that bit from Carroll out, because that is a less interesting question. If you prefer we could use a guy like Rick Ankiel instead.
Oh and I take it you believe Pettitte should not be elected to the hall of fame even if he puts up the necessay numbers?
My position has been that it is their bodies and as adults they can do whatever they want to compete. You can not stop the cheaters but the guys who want to play fair will be at a disadvantage.
Many border line pros are using to get a job. They can not compete in the sport they have dedicated their lives to playing, without it. If you were on the edge and a multi million dollar career was just out of reach without drugs ,what would you do?
They mostly look like this: $#!( @#&!! )% )!&#@@#!!!
Sports fans, and this includes me even though I try to be evenhanded, are totally unfair with regard to stuff like this. They usually want players to ruin their careers and their quality of life in return for some more wins or their own enjoyment. And the team generally wants that, too. So it’s the player’s responsibility to make the decision on what they can do, and most of the time I think fans should butt out and not call players weak and soft for trying to deal with injuries.
I disagree for two reasons: one is that this is the old “society’s to blame” defense, which can be true at times but does not resolve individuals of responsibility. The other is that it really was against the rules, and against the law.
I agree and I say so when the topic comes up. MLB leadership bears a big chunk of the responsibility what’s happened, and so do the fans. The public sometimes blames to some extent, but fans almost never gets any blame.
Accept the consequences.
It’s really the same question. They used steroids to get ahead even though they were banned, and gained an advantage over those who played by the rules.
It’s a tougher question with Pettitte, but I lean toward saying no.
Either the entire era of steroids should be ignored by the hall or steroid use should be ignored. The league was complicit. How can they judge the players while they were winking at the use ? They knew it was going on. The power stats were too huge to ignore. The hall should add an annex ,a small room where the steroid era players are honored for their accomplishments. They can legitimately be compared with each other.
If they pick and choose which players are clean enough, mistakes will be made. They are not cops and do not have the ability to go back and collect evidence of all infractions. Some arrogant jerks like Bonds will bitch ,but too bad. Something has to be done.
Luckily the ballgames themselves are error free.
I don’t agree. There’s no way to find out everything that happened during that whole period, but that doesn’t mean we have to ignore what we do know.
Major League Baseball does not decide who gets into the hall. The BBWAA does. While baseball writers weren’t too curious about what was going on either, stupidly, they are not the ones who “winked at the use.”
The hall isn’t exactly free of mistakes now.
What you know and what you can prove are different. Bonds may walk away free. Is there anyone who believes he did not use? Is there someone who can prove it to all of us?
There were a lot of players using. Bonds batted against some of them. They caught his hits and threw him out. The era was dirty.
Mistakes will be made whatever we do. I do agree with Hawkeyeopthat the greater harm will come from not punishing innocents. The greater harm, long term and short, is to elect even a single cheater to the Hall. Since this isn’t a criminal proceeding (though there will be some, I hope, with long jail terms served for those miscreats found guilty in a court of law), merely keeping someone out of the HoF doesn;'t BEGIN to need to meet the lofty standards of a criminal trial.
IOW, the standard is NOT guilt “beyond all reasonable doubt,” but merely an honest belief on the part of the voters that steroids have probably been used by a particular candidate. In Bonds’ case, or Clemens’, or McGwire’s, or Sosa or any number of other candidates this standard has been easily met so far, and will be more easily met as evidence comes out. To believe that Bonds probably did not use steroids, for example, a voter would need to be blind, stubborn, dumb and dishonest, which many voters are thankfully not.
You really want people to go to jail for a long time for using steroids? Are they really such a great evil? Do you feel the same about all prescription drugs? All illegal drugs?
Just about everyone believes he used. But again, the BBWAA isn’t a jury. They can’t take away his freedom and he doesn’t have a right to go into the Hall of Fame, so they don’t have to stick to the “reasonable doubt” standard. They can keep Bonds out even if he’s acquitted. I’m starting to think the steroid proof is going to get excluded from his trial anyway.
The real problem is that Bonds used weak “designer PEDs” that weren’t technically steroids.
Maybe if Bonds didn’t mess around with “technically not steroids” and went for the pure stuff, the Giants would have beaten the pure steroid-fueled Los Angeles Angels in the World Series.
You didn’t see World Series MVP Troy Glaus sticking to things that were allowed. He went straight for the pure, banned steroids.
Some people might argue that a World Series title for your city is almost as important as getting into the Hall. In that case, it would have been irresponsible for any player not to use everything they could get their hands on, and Bonds should be derided for not using everything he could.
That’s ludicrous, but it gets point for originality!
Yes, such as people who misspell “miscreants”–I want a little jail time for such crimes.
I do want appropriate punishment for Clemens and McGwire (and several others who falsely testified before Congress) for committing perjury, and if any other charges (such as fraud) can be applied to the taking of steroids, plus any charges for the taking of illegal prescription drugs that can be applied.
These people went far beyond just taking illegal substances for their own personal pleasure–they took them to defraud the public by providing a rigged version of a game that pretended to be fair and competitive, and then systematically lied about it for their own personal, and extremely selfish, gain. They stood to reap–and did reap–great financial rewards for doing so, which was their main reason for doing so, and now should face whatever punishment we can apply.
Merely being banned from HoF, which is an honor that goes to players who did not seek to undermine the game of baseball, for starters, is a place to start. if we can go beyond mere banning for those we have excellent reason to think took steroids, so much the better. I would support whatever legal punishment we might apply, and I would be creative in devising those punishments. These men are evil scum, and I don;t want them serving as examples of the wrist-slapping (much less the high honors) we give to celebrities who get caught committing greedy, selfish, fraudulent crimes. Throw the book at them, and print more books to keep throwing.
They are also rich. They will get powerful lawyers and contest everything. The chain of evidence will probably exclude the samples. They will get away with a slight slap on the wrist. They will tell you how that proves they are clean as the driven snow.
I still maintain athletes know what they put into their bodies. They are responsible even if they are not sure.
Balco sold them that they had new drugs and techniques which were untraceable. It was true ,but they did not keep up. When they became detectable Balco did not have the newer ones ready.
And your point is…?
I’m glad they have lawyers who will collect some of their riches. May they spend every day and every cent they have fighting to clear their names.
Why should I give a shit what they tell me? They’re proven liars who would say anything to anyone to make themselves sound good. They say they’re honest, beleaguered, persecuted heroes? OK, I say they’re scumbags, frauds and liars–and I believe me.