My question can be expressed very simply if we don’t spend too much time on the parameters … but I do realize that subsequent replies would have to “invent” parameters to grapple (heh) with the question anyway. The question:
Given:
1) Two or more (we’ll start with two) eminently average men – average in size, strength, intelligence, athletic ability, reflexes, cardio-vascular endurance, muscle-to-bodyfat ratio, etc. None of the men has any martial arts training.
2) Any one of your favorite martial artists from your favorite discipline. Someone at or near a world-championship level. Doubly interested in the top UFC, MMA, Brazilian jujitsu, and Muay Thai folks. Any size, any age … go crazy.
3) The above are engaged in a fight to incapacitation (as opposed to death). The respondent may define “incapacitation” as he/she sees fit.
4) Venue may be left to the respondent.
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What is your prospective martial artist’s lot against two average attackers? What techniques are out there to counter multiple attackers? Would the simple teamwork available to two attackers – in and of itself – be an effective counter to your MA’s specific training and high level of skill?
Does the game change significantly when a third average guy is thrown into the fray (common sense says “of course”)? A fourth? What is the tipping point? Where is the point of diminishing returns (e.g. hyporthetical response: “six average guys won’t be more effective than five”).
Feel free to change any condition to make a point – especially if there would be a difference between how fights to incapacitation would vary from fights to death (of course there would, but I’d prefer someone with a little knowledge to expouind rather than me guess at it).
Chuck Liddell fights at 205lbs. He has great takedown defense, wrestling skills, and kickboxing skills. What really sets him apart is the fact that he punches like a Missouri mule kicks. Put two guys against him in the Octogan, where he can keep his back to the cage wall and not have to defend against a rear attac,k and two average guys with no combat training have no chance. He knocks motherfuckers out. Good ones. Early and often.
Start adding attackers. While no Einsteins, these average guys recognize that some form of teamwork will help them against Liddell. Where is the tipping point?
The Octagon is an interesting venue. I had thought about stipulating a racquetball court in the OP … but I’m glad I didn’t – you’ve gotten me to realize that a confined area helps the lone martial artist quite a bit. How does the game change if Liddell is fighting in, say, the open desert? Would two average men be enough then, or do we have to invoke more?
We actually train for this in our MA class. The main strategy we are taught is to keep one of of your opponents between you and the other one. That way you only have to deal with one guy while the other guy is just standing there.
This has worked for students that have been in a real “many on one” fighting situation. One of our students (Ryan) works at a bar. One evening when he got done with his shift, he was leaving when he got attacked by 4 guys. Apparently one of the guys was asked by Ryan to leave the bar earlier and was upset about it, so he got 3 of his friends to gang up on him. Ryan was able to successfully fight off all of these guys until the police came and took them away. He wasn’t hurt at all either. Ryan later called up our instructor and told him about the incident and said that the training we did in class really did work for him.
I am thinking it will take 3-4 average men to take him down. Basically, if he is fighting two guys he can simply charge one and beat him up a bit before the other guy is able to help. Then it’s 1v1 for a little bit and Chuck can beat the second guy now until the first is able to help again. Repeat until the two guys are down for the fight.
I am unsure though, becuase you have to remember one thing. Chuck Liddell is a fucking bad ass. He has the balls to see a bunch of guys trying to kick his ass and say, “let’s go fuckers.” I doubt your average man has the testicular fortitude to change Liddell without reservation, even if there are 3 other guys with him.
I’ve been involved in the martial arts (Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, and starting tonight Shotokan Karate) for several years, so I feel somewhat qualified.
I doubt it. they’d have to train to use that teamwork effectively, and by training they’d disqualify themselves from your parameters. Knowing how to hit, where to hit, and how to avoid getting hit are the martial artists advantages, and you develop that knowledge by training.
In a fight against an average guy, the martial artist has a clear advantage. Not magical, mind you. It’s the same advantage that a seasoned pro-chess player has against an average guy. We know all the same moves, but the guy with the experience & the training knows how to use them more effectively.
In a fight against two or three or four average guys, who can say? It depends on the people involved.
Here’s one way to look at it. Take Mike Tyson in his prime. How many guys would you need to take with you before you would be willing to climb into the ring against him? A huge, mean, strong, quick guy who has trained himself to absorb incredible abuse. I can’t imagine mixing it up with him with fewer than 4 friends (and I’d bravely volunteer to come at him from behind!)
Any way, anyone who ever watched Kung Fu knows that how ever many opponents there may be, they conveniently agree to take turns attacking and getting whupped by the protagonist!
Training gives someone a huge advantage over the average guy you describe. Now you’re talking near world class. If they were courageous and smart then three guys might accomplish something. Part of it is the willingness to go for it, even untrained.
I remember a documentary about MA and one teacher talked about being surrounded by 4 or 5 guys who had sticks and chains. The leader of the group said. “You’re not good enough to take us all” The M’artist replied “You’re probably right, but I guarantee the first man in is going to be killed. Who will that be?” There were no takers. When they realized nobody had the nads to go first they all just walked away.
Thats what is impossible to predict. The courage and aggressiveness of the multiple attackers. Do they quit the moment they’er hit hard or do they get mad and keep going?
Probably. This guy, a former Marine, fought off four teenage attackers who had two guns, one of them a shotgun, and brass knuckles, with only a pocketknife. One of the attackers died, another was critically injured, while the other two fled (later arrested.)
There is a tremendous advantage in having experienced real hand to hand combat. Chuck Liddell takes more hardshots every day in training then your average guy takes in a lifetime. Could four guys beat him? Maybe, if they got lucky. He has one punch knockout power in either hand. He has excellent takedown defense. His footwork is good. He has enough stamina to fight five five minute rounds int the UFC.
What incentive do these guys have to keep fighting after they see two of their buddies injured, perhaps critically? He knocked out Randy Couture with one punch to the jaw, while wearing gloves. That same punch delivered with an open hand to the throat might well be fatal.
If somehow two guys got behind him and rushed him together, maybe they could take him down while the other two started pounding on him. Maybe. I wouldn’t volunteer to be one of them, however.
Several years ago an Australian professional boxer was involved in a fight at a hotel in Sydney. He and a friend were leaving the hotel after lunch, the friend wandered ahead and ended up in a verbal altercation with three other guys.
As the boxer approached a fight broke out. He jumped in and hit each of the assailants once. In each case he broke jaws or other facial bones and all the assailants ended up hospitalised.
I became aware of the incident later on when the boxer was charged with multiple counts of battery. The presiding judge dismissed the charges on the basis that only hitting each guy once indicated a great deal of restraint.
depends on the MA training. Again, I’d go back to Mitose, Ed Parker and the other “Hawaiian crew”. They were rough and tumble martial artists from multiple disciplines that trained together, and then went into the slums of IIRC Hileah to “practice” in real life what they trained in the dojo. Ended in tears though when Mitose’s brother died in a knife attack.
Out of that came Ed Parker’s American Kenpo, Kajakenbo and I’m not sure what else. All of these were characterized by being cross discipline (for that era) and predicated on defending against simultaneous multiple attacks.
Assuming no sucker punches or beer bottle upside the back of the head to start off the festivities, someone at championship level in anything should have a high probability of taking out both attackers. I’d say someone that’s trained reasonably hard for a few years and doesn’t freeze up in a real life situation, would be odds on to come out of it standing.
Funny you should ask this question. I just watched a video on www.wtfpeople.com
where some armymen? marines? were in the barracks and a big guy who looked like a trained boxer was going to take on 3 other guys at once. They all had boxing gloves on. They surrounded him and were punching pretty good but he kept his defences up and one by one started knocking them about pretty hard and eventually knocked them all to the ground.
The only way two or more attackers with no training is going to win is if they decide to pin/incapacitate the MA dude. This alone needs training to coordinate an attack. If they’re both looking to beat up the MA, they will be in a world of hurt. Still, I will find it hard pressed for Chuck Lidell to beat 4 guys. I think eventually one of them fill figure out to hold him down. Chuck would still have a fighting change, though.
I’d take three of me against Chuck Liddell. He’s probably stronger than I am, even though our lean body masses are similar, but ultimately, he’s still a 200 pound guy.
I wouldn’t attack Tim Sylvia with five of me. :eek:
As someone alluded to earlier, the willingness to take punishment is key. It’s physically impossible for Lidell to strike out with any force at two targets simultaneously – this should give sufficient time for the third or fourth attacker (or both) to make a grab at Lidell’s legs even if he’s delivering blows to the other two (who more or less sell out to rush him kamikaze-style).
ISTM that when Lidell recognizes this plan of attack is happening, his ability to deliver knockout blows becomes severely compromised. Can he deliver knockout blows while backpedaling or in some other way defending against attackers diving at his legs? Even in an Octogon, this would seem to be trouble. Sure, his back would be against the wall … but without the ability to backpedal very far … can he knock two guys out while at the same time protecting his legs?
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(A tangent that occured to me – if Lidell is impervious against single opponents … why didn’t he chase the dollars of professional boxing? Would he be a belt contender in his weight class right out of the shoot?)
You left “or more” open-ended, so let’s jump straight to the absurd and see if common sense leads to agreement.
At a certain point, the sheer weight of bodies becomes overwhelming. It’s great that the MA guy can potentially knock out the first 3 or 4 guys rushing him … but if 10 more without regard for their healths just keeps coming at him from all angles? That’s a good old fashioned dogpile, only more so. He can’t punch, kick, or grapple his way out of that – he can mess up the folks he can reach, I suppose … but only for as long as he can breath under the crushing weight of bodies. And if guys on the periphery of the pile get up and leap back on top :shakes head: … it’s all over for MA dude.
Wasn’t someone saying in some other threads that MA wasn’t magic?
I don’t think Liddell would be a contender right away. There’s a different skill set involved.
If he fights as a heavyweight, I say he’s toast. No way, no how does he hang with behemoths like Klitchko or Lewis for 15 rounds.
So let’s assume Liddell would drop the 5 pounds and move to cruiser. He would need to change his mentality and approach. Liddell usually wins by tagging his opponent with a haymaker, then beating the stunned guy senseless until the ref pulls him off. That strategy simply wouldn’t work with 12 ounce gloves, 15 round fights, clinches (where nobody can knee or elbow), and opponents whose fighting style is based on all of the above. I’m not saying he couldn’t eventually be a great boxer - he certainly has the physical tools and warrior mentality - just that it would require a serious retooling.
If Liddell trained for two months and went to fight a top cruiserweight, I say the guy makes him look silly for 15 rounds and wins an easy decision.
One also has to take into account the mindsets involved. In my way of thinking, if I’ve got more than one person attacking me, my life is in danger and I will do my very best to kill the first one that I close with. If that doesn’t deter the other(s), I’ll do my best to kill the next one, etc.
As far as being overwhelmed, anyone can be overwhelmed. The question really boils down to the attackers: are they willing to die or be permanently crippled just to be the first one to get a punch in on me?
I think even Lidell would agree with you. Chuck’s strengths are that he’s a well rounded fighter in terms of MMA; he’s a kickboxer and collegiate wrestler with decent ground skills and legendary takedown defense. Boxing makes most of those strengths irrelevant, and it’s hard to make the transition from kickboxing to boxing. The range is different, you can’t maintain distance with your legs and have to rely solely on your jab. I know at least one amateur MMA fighter who tried to make the transition to straight boxing and got beaten pretty badly.
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