Sport fights are the best available proxy for real fights. If size and strength matter in sport fights, then they’ll matter in street fights as well. I don’t know if it’s escaped your notice, but quick and dirty attacks are available to the bigger, stronger people as well, so in a situation where dirty fighting IS allowed the advantage to the big guy is there also. Do you ever ask yourself why convicts spend so much of their time adding muscle? Is it because of the numerous sport fights they plan to engage in?
How about some cites for your side? You’re making claims that I disagree with–that the smaller weaker guy has an advantage in a street fight–show me some cites that your POV is correct. How about some videos–dozens of street fight videos out there.
While you’re looking for some, here’s some videos of sport fighters beating up people in street fights, using sports techniques.
Boxing Boxing again Wrestling
Also, Kano’s people still spent some of their time on kata, but in 1886 they had only split from jiujitsu 4 years ago. Over time, kata has become less and less a part of judo, and can’t be found at all in the majority of schools I’ve been to.
Hoo-boy: Evil Economist. We’ve been speaking at cross-purposes. Looking at the Feb 2009 thread, it’s clear that you don’t think that BJJ is purely a sport style:
If you’re saying that self-defense styles can benefit from sport-style training, then I can’t disagree. (Thanks for the Judo followup btw. I see that Kano didn’t banish self-defense techniques from his art, he just relegated them away from full force training. )
I guess one interesting test might be pitting a Greco-Roman wrestler (strong on full contact stuff, weak on self defense technique) against somebody from certain Japanese Jui-jitsu schools. Then again, if you don’t regularly practice hard contact sparring, I’m not sure why you would want to enter a Vale tudo match.
Not that I know what I’m talking about, but that has to overstate the case.
There’s very little hard data here, but one empirical result is that any kind of fighting back will reduce the risk of sexual assault. So to the extent that exhibition Tai Chi improves the odds of fighting back, it should help in self defense. Note that I’m making a pretty minimalist argument here. I would think that learning how to deliver a well placed kick to the groin would tend to get the bad guy’s attention.
I don’t know whether you’ve worked in Law Enforcement, Bar bouncing or bodyguarding. Those occupations come with a certain probability of physical encounters (though there are stories of big city cops who retire without ever firing their weapon). But to the extent that your so-called real-world martial arts training has encouraged you to “Take-on” a mugger, barroom brawler or coworker, I would say that it hasn’t been an especially effective self-defense regimen.
I disagree. See my post on self-defense grounded on empirically-based risk assessment. The greatest benefits from martial art training don’t relate to Mad Max situations.
BJJ has a self defense side, and some schools really push it (e.g., you can’t get a black belt from Rickson without demonstrating mastery of the self-defense aspect), but to be honest I was never particulary impressed by any of it. I wasn’t impressed by it when it was pushed on us in judo either, but some people seem to really like it. Personally I think a good throw would beat any of the self-defense moves. The knife defenses in particular are just going to get someone killed.
If I was ever in a real fight I bet I wouldn’t even think of the self defense stuff until afterwards–that’s becasue the sport stuff is so deep in my muscle memory that I would react that way without thinking (which in my opinion is the huge benefit of sport training–it makes you react instinctively, and because you’ve made it work against highly-trained individuals, your instinctive reaction will be the right one). That’s just my opinion though
I’ve never been too impressed by the “kick him in the groin and run away” school of thought. First, guys are really good at instinctively protecting their groin, especially the sort of guy who’s going to attack someone–if that’s what you’re counting on, you’re probably going to be out of options pretty quickly. Second, I’ve taken some pretty hard shots there myself (in training, by accident), and with the adrenaline and endorphines at the time it didn’t slow me down much at all.
Meant to edit this into my prior response, to avoid overposting to the thread, but apparently a time-limit on edits.
I’ve seen similar match-ups. One in particular matched Igor Vochanchin (a kickboxer, sport fighter) against a guy who went by the nickname “Doctor Muerta,” (or something similar, I forget right now) who claimed to know the death touch, and to be a jiujitsu master (or if not jiujitsu, some other similar style). If I remember correctly, it was a vale tudo match–no gloves, no judges, no rules.
Igor beat “Dr. Death” so badly that at the time I though he was going to die. I mean that absolutely literally; I thought I was watching someone being beaten to death. My guess is that “Dr. Death” was trying out his lethal touches for the first time in the cage that day (unless there had been some unexplained disappearances in his town over the last few years), and was finding out for the first time that he was full of crap.
That fight is one of the reasons I have so much contempt for the “lethal” martial arts; most of it is just utter crap, but you don’t find that out until the worst possible moment. In Judo or BJJ, I know my stuff works. I’ve beaten big, strong, fit, highly trained people for real. I’ve locked in choke holds that would have killed them, despite their best efforts to stop me (famous murder trial in the BJJ community where BJJ practitioner did that to his ex-wife’s boyfriend). If I’m ever in a fight and have to choke someone, I’m not going to find out for the first time that chokes don’t work. whereas, someone who thinks they can break a knee with a kick, and has structured their training around that, is in for a very unpleasant surprise.
My experience with Judo is that it is taught in Jujitsu Dojos. YMMV of course, and I am aware that there are Judo only Dojos.
As for the videos you posted, trained sports fighters going up against people who don’t know how to fight isn’t a fair comparison.
Basically as it goes we could watch hours of ultimate fighting and youtube streetfights trying to break down the minutiae but I think we’re going too far into a point where you’re trying to convince me of something I don’t passionately disagree with. I wouldn’t want to face Mike Tyson in a brawl, hell I wouldn’t want to face an amateur boxer in a brawl.
You’re right, sport fighters are badass, no doubt about it. I don’t disagree with that one bit. To recap my point, someone who trains in Judo vs someone who trains in both Judo and Jujitsu is at a disadvantage. I agree completely that full contact training is superior to half-speed training.
About weight though, several videos have been posted of a smaller guy kicking the crap out of a bigger dude. You dismissed the one about Kenpo vs Sumo and your reasoning was sound, but what about the one where Butterbean got his ass handed to him by the little Japanese dude who outgrappled him? What’s your take on that?
Measure for Measure When you say, Greco-Roman Wrestling are you referring to Pankration? Because Pankration is badass.
As it regards say Cardio Kickboxing’s ability to translate into a fighting style, it doesn’t really because it’s all about sustaining fast movements and not about maximizing power. Seriously watch Billy Blanks move and watch Tony Jaa move. With Tony Jaa you see a well oiled machine, and even on the TV screen you can see the raw power coming through in his movements. Muay Thai just exudes power in its movements. It’s breathtaking to behold when someone is good at it. Cardio Kickboxing can’t hold a candle to that.
My point is that jiujitsu offers nothing useful over judo, and when Judo players fought jiujitsu practitioners, jujitsu practitioners didn’t just lose, some of them died. To the extent jiujitsu offers additional techniques over judo, it ends up diluting the amount of time that could be spent focusing on useful stuff. As Bruce Lee said, better to practice one kick 10,000 times than 10,000 kicks one time. I’m guessing that we’ll probably have to agree to disagree here.
The little guy was better. I’m not saying that the bigger guy always wins, just that the bigger guy has an advantage. Skill can overcome that advantage.
Two anecdotes here; first, the little guy is Genki Sudo, an incredibly entertaining fighter who I trained with briefly when I was visiting a friend in Beverly Hills; he was a purple belt in BJJ at the time, and tapped me out repeatedly (embarassing, because I was also a purple belt, and bigger). Sadly, he gave up fighting a few years ago.
Second, the big guy is Butterbean, “the king of the four-rounders”. He was fighting a boxer from New York, and Larry Merchant said “they had to go all the way to New York to find someone who couldn’t beat him.”
Actually I was referring to Scholastic wrestling which is different than both. Seriously gang, I really don’t know what I’m talking about.
With regards to say Cardio Kickboxing’s ability to translate into a fighting style, I’m saying that for most people it really doesn’t have to. Our main nemeses are not Chuck Norris or Oddjob, but Duncan Donuts and Sugar Frosted Flakes. Physical confrontation can usually be evaded or redirected toward law enforcement. Most criminals look for easy pickings: you lock your car door not to make it impenetrable, but to be passed over by the creeps. Just giving the bad guys (or loudmouthed associates) pause is usually sufficient. Sure, there are a small number of situations where awareness of your surroundings, then evasion, then voice, then half-assed physical resistance, then running (then evasion! then voice!) will fail. But assuming your occupation doesn’t involve keeping the peace, those residual risks are relatively small.
Continuing my speculation, I suspect that for some high schoolers Taekwondo would be fine for self defense, as showy kicks to the air can discourage physical confrontation, provided you affect a certain air of modesty.
This is funny because Billy Blanks was a legitimate badass; he held a couple of world karate and TKD titles and won a bunch of kickboxing matches. Tony Jaa, on the other hand, is an actor and a stuntman, who I don’t think ever studied Muay Thai except for his movie roles. If they fought, Billy Blanks would win.
Greco-Roman wrestling is the base style for a number of world-class MMA fighters. I’d hate to fight a Greco-Roman wrestler because, like judo, they’re likely to be able to throw you on your head, and that could be lethal, especially on concrete.
Folkstyle (scholastic) wrestling has also been the base style for a number of good fighters.
Basically, wrestling is one of the most effective martial arts in the world. It gets short shrift by the Black-Belt theatre crowd, but in a real fight it’s very effective.
Bruce Lee once said a person with 6 months boxing and wrestling training could beat 90% of the martial artists in the world.
I agree completely, but, if you’re in a fight you’re probably not on a mat. The ground, asphalt, sidewalk etc are hard and gritty with sharp edges and rocks and such.
Best to be avoided if you can.
Non-trained wrestling doesn’t count in your appraisal, of course.
BTW; is there a name in judo for their version of the WWE suplex?
Those things benefit the wrestler: he’s going to be throwing his opponent onto the ground. I linked to this fight earlier, but which person should be more worried about the hard gritty sharp surface?
Ura Nage is the closest, but a WWE suplex wouldn’t be legal in Judo.
I don’t know if it was judo or jiujitsu, but a kid whumped me flat on my back in high school. I remember giving him some shit, poking him in the shoulder with my fingers, then flying through the air and landing on my back. I was stunned, seeing stare literally, with the air gone out of my lungs.
I later learned that it was whatever discipline many Japanese-American parents sent their young sons to from a young age.
This was in the early '60s.
I’m okay now.
How would Tony Jaa get the roles if he never studied it before then? People don’t usually say, “Oh you mean you have none of the required skills for this part? You’re hired!”
But I recognize I gave a poor example and showed my ignorance, so lets move on.
I’m of the opinion that training method is more significant than either style or physicality in the context of self-defense. Willingness to defend oneself is not universally innate. Training under stress prepares a combatant more effectively to respond in an attack than exclusively training in controlled conditions. Any style can be trained under stress so that the combatant can be prepared to make a useful response to an unexpected threat.
Style and physicality are of overwhelming significance when both parties want to fight. When all parties in a conflict are interested in pursuing a battle to a decisive win, size, weight, style, strength and conditioning are major factors, and each one will be tested.
When neither party to a conflict wants to fight, other aspects of training are more important. The typical mugger or rapist does not want to fight. The predator seeks prey; not battle. That’s why the various studies show that fighting back has such an effect in dissuading assault. The assailant will often disengage to seek less risky prey. Immediately convincing an attacker that you are a risk by any available means is going to be much more effective than any particular set of combat techniques.
The important question is not whether the grappler could beat the kick boxer, but who would better weather an unexpected assault from an attacker or attackers of indeterminate capacity. I’d say that the one who trains to identify potential threats early, attract third-party attention quickly and to aggressively escalate disproportionately with the sole intention of making a safe escape is going to do better than the eager, seasoned fighter who sees the attack as an invitation demonstrate his prowess.
Disclaimer: The system that I espouse and teach has been described up-thread as “90% hype.”
Tymp I’ve spent a lot of time in nasty neighborhoods in New York City and have never been messed with just because I was able to figure out a way to look like I wasn’t the easiest prey on the block. That’s been my best form of self-defense.
