martial artists defeating muggers

Measure for Measure said:

Karate black belt I know, fairly beefy, also something of a pretty boy. Very good. Once had a job as a bouncer. One night some patron wanted to fight him, trying to challenge him and such. He says okay, but let me warm up first. The other guy is saying what do you mean warm up? The black belt drops into the splits, then hops back up and snaps off half a dozen quick kicks head high without putting his foot down. The patron somehow decided he had other things to be doing. That’s fight avoidance (on the part of the black belt).

Nice!

first of all, the list of incidents in the response did not include one that was captured on an episode of cops. A man attempted to mug an elderly asian outside of a bar at knife point. The mugger was stripped of the weapon and sliced up pretty good. The cops that arrived on scene were quite amused by the situation and gave the mugger a very hard time about it.

Now let’s discuss whether or not martial arts training can keep you safe on the street in real life. The answer to this question unfortunately has too many variables to answer strait up. The largest of those variables are: what art have you studied and who was your instructor? American Karate, Judo, Taekwando, and many other forms of martial arts are mainly for competition and not self defense. Even though many of those are sold to people as self defense arts. If you really want to be able to defend yourself on the street you need to study Kajukembo, Krav Maga, Kempo, or some forms of Kung Fu. The main challenge after choosing your art is finding a quality instructor. If you attend a class and it is mainly full of black belts along with other high ranks, then you are in the wrong place and need to leave because the instructor promotes too easily and his students will most likely lack proper form and technique. After you manage to find a quality instructor you will need to invest years of practice both in and out of class. You will suffer injuries, and will sweat and bleed more than once. If you have what it takes to stick it out, then maybe you will be able to learn how to defend yourself against some a-hole that thinks you are an easy target.

So, can martial arts keep you safe on the streets? Yes it can, but you must choose wisely grasshopper.

I think that the biggest variable is, as others have mentioned, how you practice. If you routinely practice the techniques full speed against opponents who are actively resisting that makes a world of difference. To me that is one of the major reasons that grappling arts like judo, wrestling and BJJ are quite effective, because the way you learn is by applying those skills to people who are not letting you get away with it, all the while trying to do the same back to you. Which, frankly, is what’s going to happen when some buffoon tries to rough you up.

No matter what “art” you have learned, if you have not spent considerable time doing it live against people who are not cooperating, it’s going to be of questionable use in an actual fight. If you ask me to bet on a fight between a Grand High Master Of Kung Fu (who is just great at forms and stances and so on but doesn’t do tons of sparring with actively resisting opponents) and some dude with a few month’s experience in, say, wrestling (nothing fancy but constant practice with real opponents), I bet that GHMOKF gets his face ground into the dirt quickly and repeatedly. Maybe not all the time but the majority.

And if you think judo isn’t good for self-defense I think you haven’t ever gotten into a scuffle with a judoka :smiley:

A well known home defence expert (guns, mostly) says that a handgun is a contact weapon. His point is to either use a shotgun, or learn to get in real close.
Having had a little range experience, I don’t doubt it a bit.

About 10 years ago I was hi-jacked (car jacked).

The two of them both carried medium barrelled revolvers. One moment I was sitting in my car minding my own business, the next I was staring at two barrels. I reacted by going for my own 9mm, which was lying next to me in a holster. It got stuck, which cost me a precious second or two. I then had to chamber a round, my hand slipped, cost me another second, and by this time the attackers had seen I was armed. They went into phase 2 of their attack, which was wide eyed alarm.

Then they kicked into phase 3, where one yanked open my door, and the other leaned in between the door and the windscreen and took aim. I ducked towards the steering wheel, he fired, he missed. By this time the second attacker was next to me, looking for a headshot. I moved back up again, let go of my gun, grabbed his gun with one hand and went for his throat with the other. I was trying to both throttle him and head off the gun away from me and in his direction. He was getting paler by the second, while his buddy was bouncing around behind him trying to get another shot.

That’s how we struggled for a few seconds. Eventually he had the advantage of leverage and I tumbled out of the vehicle, still holding onto his throat, and his gun.

The other attacker was now behind me, but I kept moving, kicking, rolling. The second attacker then started pistol whipping me, arms, head, shoulders, arms, head, shoulders, all the while shouting “stop, you bastard, stop, you bastard”. Yes, he was telling me to stop fighting. Go figure.

In the end, the pain and the dizziness was too much, and I let go. They both stood over me, and took aim.

Then they turned away without shooting.

The reason why I’m telling this story is that, in my opinion, guns are medium to long range weapons. I got out of that mess relatively unscathed, but if they had had knives, it would have been a very different story.

Are you a Kajukembo guy (I ask because of your name)?

Mellivora capensis, what your story demonstrates is that your attackers were just not prepared for someone to resist in the face of guns. They expected you to freeze and then comply. To see you react and try to find a weapon of your own was as much a surprise to them as it was to you.

Furthermore, when they realized what you were doing, they were unprepared to actually shoot you. Or maybe they didn’t want to damage your car. Because if they had been real violent heartless thugs, they would have shot you through the car window rather than trying to open the door to get to you.

But you are correct, pistols at arm’s reach puts the gun in position to be defended against. The flipside is that accuracy of the shooter means too much distance and they become less effective as well. Thus the conundrum: do I stand off and shoot and hope I’m a good enough shot and he doesn’t evade, or do I get close and hope he doesn’t grab the weapon?

As for self defense and martial arts, I’m going to go against some of what has been said here. Most people are not training self defense to get in the octagon or go five rounds against Chuck Liddell. Most people are not going to have to withstand Mike Tyson wailing on them. While conditioning and being able to take a blow can be useful, especially from a brawl type situation, most of the time the intent of a self defense reaction is a rapid overwhelming response to disable the attacker enough to escape.

Yes, it is valuable to train at full speed. Yes, you need to condition so muscle memory takes over. But there is advantage to slow speed walk throughs prior to high speed moves. There is advantage to light contact drills learning focus, combined with full contact strikes. But full contact strikes can be done against pads and mitts rather than each other. Most of us have regular jobs, regular lives. Going to work with a black eye or broken nose is not high on the list of things that help your career. Having broken ribs is not pleasant if your job is data entry at a computer, nevermind a physical job.

Realize there is a difference between the three aspects of martial arts - the Art, the Sport, and the Self Defense. The Art is for expression and can help train form and concentration and such. The Sport part helps train movement and working with an opponent and finding targets and finding targets, etc. But some of the techniques used in the sport may not be the most effective in a self-defense setting.

Self defense training should emphasize situational awareness and avoidance. But it should also train you on moves and techniques that do not require a lot of precision to be effective, that work independent of the size of the attacker and defender, and that allow the defender to rapidly take control long enough to get away.

Also, while physical fitness is laudable and encouraged, not everybody is going to be Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Chuck Norris, whoever. Some of us are going to be a little out of shape. Some of us are never going to have the flexibility to do the splits, or break a board above our heads. It’s a fact that many of us have other things in our lives and cannot dedicate 4 hours a day to training. If what you want is Self Defense training, you should find a program that works with you as you are to develop your best ability, not expecting you to become Chuck Liddell or Royce Gracie.

Realize that your self defense training does not make you a badass. The intent is to provide you with tools to use in an emergency.

Yes I am a Kajukembo practitioner on the Richard Peralta side of the family tree in Watauga texas.

kajuroe I think that Evil Economist has made a strong case for Judo as a viable self-defense art. Though I think what really makes the difference is the full-speed contact. If you train any art at full-speed you’ll be more prepared than someone who trained any other art half-speed. I don’t think it really matters what art you choose. As for Tae Kwan Do as it is usually trained for breaking boards and point fighting, I think it’s probably lowest on the totem pole for self-defense.

irishman Shots WERE fired in Mellivora capensis’s story. I don’t think they were prepared to kill or prepared to face someone fighting back though. It’s amazing to me that most carjackers as such don’t plan it so that they just get out of the car if the person resists. I’m not the carjacking type but it seems better for business to me to just slide out of the car and say, “Have a nice day.”, maybe followed up with a, “I really don’t want to shoot you, so please don’t pull a gun, just get out of here.”, turn people’s instinct to flee into a tactical advantage. Jack the next car where the people will get out without resisting. People are much more likely to be thankful they got out of the situation than to go Dirty Harry to ensure you don’t get a chance to steal someone else’s car.

After reading this thread I had my Jujitsu class on Monday. My instructor is a good buddy of mine who I got into his class by knowing him first and then getting involved. I’m similarly friends with several people in his class now and it’s a close knit group. We often go for wings and a pitcher of beer or two at a pub a few blocks down. I asked if he ever taught gun disarm techniques, and his answer was very interesting. He agreed completely that a knife at close range was more dangerous than a gun, but while he is willing to teach knife disarms, he’s not so willing to teach gun disarms because he doesn’t want to encourage people to think they can disarm a guy with a gun. It was interesting because all at once he rationally agreed that guns were less dangerous than knives at hand to hand range, but also gave them a greater irrational reverence. It eventually degenerated into making fun of Ronald Duncan and his M-16 disarms. :wink:

Bringing it back full circle though to the original post. What that reader should hear is:

Your son after a three month class in a martial art is not even close to even being able to see across the horizon to know what it even appears like at a distance to be trained. (In short: he’s not trained in martial arts.) The answer to Cecil’s column really is that training WILL MOST CERTAINLY help you out if you are mugged, but a three month class doesn’t count. It takes years. As has been shown by this thread there are a lot of different factors that go into being trained well.

When I was training in HS my instructors referred to ‘Yellow belt syndrome’ as being when you get your yellow belt and start thinking you’re billy badass now. A short self-defense class shouldn’t give you the confidence to think you can win a fight, it’s just to make you a less easy target. It reminds me of this really small timid lady when I was 15 studying Tae Kwan Do, when she held the heavy bag for me when I did a running sidekick and blew her across the room. The lesson I learned and she probably already knew is that she would unlikely ever be able to take me in a fight. Obviously it was also to teach her to stand more firmly and not to be afraid to be knocked down. She could train Tae Kwan Do for years and never be billy badass, but it might have helped her become more centered in her body and less afraid of the world in general. I moved away, I don’t know what happened to her. I hope she found what she was looking for eventually. At that school though, what they would’ve taught her to do is master a front kick for a good nutkick and run. I don’t recall self-defense going much further than that. At that school when we had a guy come in and do a demonstration of Tai Jitsu (Jujitsu hand to hand technique) I was mesmerized because it was far and away different from Tae Kwan Do, and I think it turned me away from Tae Kwan Do forever.

I looked it up on the web and see that some refer to it as a point where people start to get bored in their training because the initial stages of learning something new are gone and the same training is not yielding the same level of advancement.

So surprised no one has mentioned Ed Gruberman yet … http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF5nK5EVm3w&fmt=18

the issue with using judo as an effective street defense art is that you have to be too precise with your movements in order to be successful. Then there is also always that guy that you just can not get off of his feet. Trust me I train with one. That is why you need to have a well rounded skill set. I prefer being able to strike soft tissue, break bones, and get away quickly.

Yes, training at full speed with someone attacking you will definitely give you an advantage in fight. It is also great if you are able to train with multiple attackers. We also train with contact and no pads. Cups however are mandatory.

Irishman and mswas, thanks for your responses.

Why they never took another shot in the final moments of that altercation is a question that has haunted me for a decade. Was it their reluctance to kill? Maybe, maybe not. Then again, they did take one shot in the first place. Had time run out for them? Perhaps, but then it only takes a split second to squeeze the trigger. And then the most frustrating possibility, did they only have one bullet between them? Not entirely unlikely. SA gun laws make it exceedingly difficult to obtain ammo without a licence. Stealing guns is one thing, keeping them loaded without a licence is another.

Whatever the reasons, the important lessons I learned is that when dealing with a gun attack, do not freeze - a moving target is a difficult target; guns need bullets in the chamber; you can hold a barrel without hurting yourself, but you cannot hold a blade without causing serious damage; do not go from crime scene A to crime scene B - always fight back, take every gap you can find, even if it is minute.

Turning back to the original question, is martial arts training any good. In my view, yes. Any form of combat training, from judo to fencing, is to some degree useful. However, no amount of skill will help you in a fight if you do not find your mean streak and release it. As they say, it’s not the dog in the fight, it’s the fight in the dog.

12 years of boarding school taught me that you can achieve surprising results merely by your willingness to fight, even it means losing. Especially if the odds are completely against you. I’m not advocating starting a fight for the sake of fighting, I’m saying fighting as a response to an attack.

How often do I hear women saying they wouldn’t fight an attacker, but the same women admit that they would gouge out the eyes of the attacker if their baby were to be attacked? This is where I disagree with Tymp. I’m convinced we all have the innate willingness to defend ourselves. It’s just that most of us have been conditioned into believing that it is somehow wrong to fight, or counterproductive to resist.

Always fight back. Always. Fight. Back.

Always.

Even if you lose, the loss will be worth that one sweet punch, that one lucky strike. There is no disgrace in losing, none whatsoever. On the contrary, the mere act of standing up to an attacker is immensely liberating.

Find your mean streak, contain it, call it up and use it when needed. Learn a fighting skill, any skill, the more the better, and together with your mean streak you have a greater chance of surviving an attack.

But,
noboby’s wearing boots!!!

According to the AV Club, it’s Jhoon Rhee Self-Defense.

I know the Ed Gruberman thing up there is just a skit, but isn’t there really quite a lot of foofarah in all this?

Mellivora capensis,

It’s interesting that you mention the apparent dissonance in a woman’s willingness to defend herself and her willingness to defend her child. People often do have an easier time taking initial action in defense of a third party a third party, provided there’s a close relationship of some sort.

Very frequently, survivors of personal assaults – especially sexual assault – bear a strong sense of regret that, when the moment came to fight or flee, they froze and did nothing. That moment of inaction cost them their best chances of escape.

What I referred to as an innate willingness to defend oneself is not what we, in the conscious calm of speculation, tell ourselves we’d be willing to do, but how we respond in an moment of shock, pain and stress. It is reflexive for a great many people to freeze while they try to consciously sort out the effects of sudden, unexpected trauma, fear and violence. This deer-in-headlights response might be the result of social conditioning as you suggest. Training under stress can help someone to develop a more useful reflexive response.

Tymp, point well made and taken.

I’m a Grand Master Peralta lineage Kajukembo black belt. :smiley: I know your instructor, Sifu Gonzales; he’s beat me up in demos at seminars before. Very nice and talented guy, hits like a hammer. I do a lot of cross training in kickboxing and BJJ/submission grappling (and dabble in Krav Maga and Kali), but I’m still studying and ranking in Kajukembo also.

News to me.

Also, as a kajukembo practitioner, you should be aware that judo was one of the base styles of your art.