It’s an offshoot of Villabrille-Largusa Kali. Kamatuuran is pretty small, maybe a few dozen students.
Sturmhake
OK, now Villabrille I’ve certainly heard of although I had no idea there was an offshoot.
And let me second what you said about Kendo. I took a few lessons once, just to see what it was like. In all honesty I had a great time wailing away at people with the shinai but it has the same relationship to martial arts as tennis.
As a funny aside, the Kendo instructor (an elderly Japanese man) was majorly peeved when I tried using some of the Kali blocks and counters. He informed me that “Kendo is a Japanese gentleman’s sport and what you just did was more appropriate in an alley!” I think that was my last lesson and I turned in my shinai.
Regards
Testy
Thanks for the tip. I’ll look into Aikido. The learning curve doesn’t bother me – it’s not like my life is such that I have a pressing need to acquire self-defense skills. Just seemed like a two-birds-with-one-stone thing – fitness and a useful (well, hopefully never, but just in case) skill.
I’m sorry, do you mean a steep learning curve? I felt reasonably confident in Tae Kwon Do after three sessions a week for about a year. I haven’t done it in years, but it’s my first instinct whenever I’m thinking self-defense. I only ever got as far as green belt, but I still know I’m going to be more prepared to defend myself than someone who had no martial arts training whatsoever. I’ve managed to retain pretty good basic form and basic moves even without practicing for years.
Aikido, on the other hand, kicked my fucking ass. I didn’t get too far with it at all, but I got far enough to know it was way harder (for me, anyways) than Tae Kwon Do. It requires an incredible level of endurance and accuracy. Also, for those who like their martial arts pretty, watching two people spar in Aikido is like watching a beautiful choreographed dance. I find it fascinating just to watch, and it’s much more suitable for my nonviolent/non-aggressive peace-lovin’ pacifist self.
I do martial arts for the discipline, the exercise, and the challenge. When I return to it, I’ll be returning to Aikido. My favorite thing about it is what I perceive to be an incredibly steep learning curve–you will not be bored for a very, very long time.
As they did mine. I’ve been in the ATA for 20 years, as well as having trained in another style. It’s amusing in some ways to read these “ATA sux” posts from people. The majority of them are from people who couldn’t hack it in the ATA.
Agreed. If a school is not willing to let you observe classes or let you try classes for a while, there is a problem. I’ll give anyone 30 days free instruction at the drop of a hat. That way, they can make a better informed decision as to whether they want to continue training with me.
There’s a Jeet Kun Do dojo in my hometown that’s been there for well over 20 years now.
Krav maga is an explosive style, based on quickness. From a physical fitness point of view, expect an aerobic workout. For combative techniques, IMnshO krav maga is more direct and brutal than classic styles.
I had a lot more fun working out in a boxing gym than I ever did in TKD or Aikido. If I was going to do that kind of stuff again, I’d probably look for a MMA gym or something
Those kinds of martial arts attract a lot of really lame dudes. The kind of dudes who would get serious about emailing realultimatepower.
Who’s looking for an external source of discipline?
Even if your dojo isn’t practicing Bullshido, I think its hard to tell the difference. I practiced with a serious, sincere Aikido instructor, but when I look back, I can’t believe I listened to the shit he had to say. . .harmony with nature? Energy flows? Gimme a break.
In general, you want to avoid places that have:
[ul][li]long-term or expensive locked-in contracts[/li][li]regular belt test schedules where you take the test on their timetable instead of yours[/li][li]places that purport to teach several arts under one roof unless there are different instructors for each[/li][li]a high teacher/student ratio[/ul][/li]
Those are all signs of a place that’s more oriented toward making money than teaching you. Also, unless you specifically want to compete in sport fighting, avoid places with lots of pretty trophies. Trophies are nice, but all that means is that the teacher or the students have competed in a lot of tournaments where points were counted and rules against hurting people were followed.
If you want more practically-oriented martial arts, look for places that don’t have a lot of competition trophies in the window. Competition is all about the sport aspect. They may teach you how to score points, but not how to fight. Those two goals overlap a bit, but not a whole hell of a lot.
The individual teacher is the most important element of learning any martial art. In my opinion, the teacher is more important than the style. If you’ve got a good teacher, you can seriously learn some practical self defense from something as dance-like as Tai Chi. First hand screening is the only real way to tell whether the school is going to be good or not.
Tae Kwon Do
High potential for BS, but you can find good instructors. Most likely the good ones will be Korean immigrants or people who have trained in Korea. Most US-only guys will have trained in sport fighting. Not necessarily true, but in general this will be the case.
Kung Fu
Aside from noting that I’ve seen some very nice movement in different forms of Kung Fu, I don’t have much experience with this set of arts. There are TONS of different schools and approaches, and I’m probably only aware of about half of them. Quality is probably like anything else, total grab-bag of good and bad. You’ll have to screen on an individual basis, or find a local recommendation from someone you trust.
Karate
Like TKD, can be made kid-friendly and thus has high potential for crap teaching. Here, Japanese ties don’t necessarily mean quality as Karate ranges from no- to light-contact in some ryû to hard-core bruising and bloody noses sparring. No way to know what you’re going to get unless you do some research on the school’s tradition and/or go to the school and see for yourself.
Ninjutsu
As related in this thread, there are some real headcases in the Bujinkan, but in general, all caveats being taken into consideration, a Bujinkan dojo is going to be decent. It’s where I started out. If you’ve got one in your area, try to get an outside opinion on it from one of the other solid dojo, like Jack Hoban’s place. He trains with Hatsumi-sensei regularly and I’ve personally worked with him. He’s a good, no-nonsense, grounded guy.
Other than Bujinkan, I wouldn’t consider any school in the US to be teaching something even remotely related to Ninjutsu, and truthfully, the vast majority of the curriculum of the Bujinkan have nothing to do with it. There are a couple of Koryû (old tradition) schools in Japan that teach Ninjutsu, but you’d have to make a serious commitment to living and training here before they’d even consider you. Most likely not even then.
Judo
Sportified, but some good stuff there. Will kick your ass into shape. Judo guys usually get into incredible condition for competition. One thing I don’t like about modern sport Judo is that they sometimes deliberately take falls badly in an attempt to keep their opponents from getting points for a clean throw. That’s counterproductive when the whole point of learning ukemi is supposed to be learning how to get thrown without being hurt.
Jujutsu
In general, harder, more practical form of Judo, with the inclusion of sport-unfriendly locks and throws that have been left out of the modern Judo curriculum. Also teaches kicks and punches. Some schools might even teach pressure points. A good choice for relatively practical fighting style, but with the recent popularity of Brasilian Jujutsu due to MMF, your chances of finding anything not unduly influenced by the Gracies is low.
Brasilian Jujutsu
Some stuff is more practical and harder edged, some is not so good, from what I’ve seen. For better or worse, this style has made its name from MMF competitions. Problem is, that means they focus on “dominating the opponent.” That means rolling around on the ground getting dirty.
Sometimes that’s a good thing; ground fighting is something schools are often weak at, and it can be very important. In your typical shitty neighborhood with broken glass and other crap on the sidewalk, dealing with a guy who might be just a diversion for a group mugging, domination fighting is probably not the way to go. In a bar, giving the guy’s buddies free kicks at your kidneys and head while you’re tied up on the floor with the belligerent drunk is a good way to end up in the hospital pissing blood, or puking and brain-damaged from a serious concussion.
I guess you can tell that I don’t like their focus too much, though I do think they have some good points.
Aikido
Most styles are very soft. Depends on the school though. Some very good stuff in there, but takes a lot of practice to get good enough to be practical, again depending on the training style. Great for learning ukemi (breakfalls and rolls) for learning joint locks, and can be great for learning how to smoothly receive attacks so that you remain in a good position without getting hurt and without having to do hard-style blocking. Some very similar movement and techniques in my early training has saved my ass a few times.
Hapkido
I know next to nothing about this, even though Japanese martial arts is my main thing. Sorry.
Kenjutsu/Iaijutsu
I’m studying this at a very small local school. By small I mean me and about 2 or 3 regular students. Even the locals barely know it exists.
Your chances of finding a reputable school State-side are pretty low. Schools that teach Kenjutsu or Iaijutsu (usually a bit of both) are part of the Koryû, and that means that it takes a lot more of a commitment on the student’s part than most martial arts. A good teacher will be competent in Japanese, and will almost certainly have lived and trained in Japan for several years. One way to know if he’s legit is to ask about the history. He will probably tell you more than you ever wanted to know about it, while pulling out reams of scrolls and books for documentation, showing you pictures of gravestones, etc.
There’s usually not a lot of anything but sword work at one of these schools, maybe a few hand to hand techniques. You will probably be doing a lot of solitary kata for form practice, and probably doing it to the point of annoyance. We do some cutting and receiving practice with wooden swords, but not near enough for my taste. My practical-oriented early teaching makes me impatient with traditional Japanese methods sometimes.
Then again, if you want practical, you probably won’t be into learning how to hit people with a three-foot razor blade; that’s been more or less obsolete for the last few centuries. If you do want to learn sword work, go for one of the Western martial arts schools that have been growing lately. I’d frankly like to learn some of that. Check out ARMA or one of the other organizations for local schools.
Muay Thai
This can be some some hardcore training. The conditioning is going to be almost as painful as learning how to hit and get hit. I’ve only met a couple of guys who did this. They said that the first few months were hell.
On the other hand, the payoff is that you will learn how to take hits, protect yourself from serious damage, and keep fighting. The prospect of getting hurt a bit won’t make you hesitate, and you’ll be used to dealing with real fight-like conditions, so you probably won’t freeze up in shock in an attack.
Krav Maga
I don’t have personal experience with this other than some very limited cross-training with a guy from Israel who did this at the same time he was involved in the Bujinkan. From what I talked about with him and what I’ve seen from some demonstration videos, it shares some aspects of the newer practical fighting schools that have appeared in the US recently in that they often seem to emphasize using natural reactions to deal with attacks. Again, you should probably look for guys who have gone to the source, training in Israel or with people who do.
I’d agree with most of what’s already been said, with maybe the caveats that some (but not all) sport fighters with a lot of trophies on display also know how to seriously hurt you, and that some instructors training multiple styles actually do know their stuff. At the school I used to train at in Houston, the instructor taught classes in Jeet Kune Do, Kali, submission grappling, Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu, MMA, and Muay Thai, and really was competent to teach them all. You just have to be careful to check their lineage and see if they know what they’re talking about, although a guy who claimed to teach thirty-something arts (some do) would still raise an eyebrow.
Some of the stuff listed in the article I’d tend to agree with, and some I think he’s overstated. For example, one of his red flags that says a school is “100% McDojo, without question” is an instructor who claims to be a grandmaster/9th degree or higher that is under 50. Okay, I agree that most grandmasters are old far…uh, dignified gentlemen of a certain age, but then on the other hand you’ve got someone like John “Pit Master” Hackleman, Chuck Liddell’s trainer, who was promoted to 10th degree by Grandmaster Walter Godin at the age of 41 in 2000. That’s unusually young, but he’s got unusually good credentials. He goes by “John” instead of “Grandmaster,” and you’d have to ask him or research to find out what his rank actually is, because he hangs his hat on his accomplishments instead of his rank. He also has over 200 students including some children at his school, “the Pit,” but despite his rank and the number of students he has I don’t think a lot a folks would call the Pit a McDojo.
As far as which arts have a tendancy towards Bullshido/McDojoism, I’ve always been of the opinion that you’re going to find some of that sort of thing in any art. Tae Kwon Do has a perhaps undeserved reputation for it, but I think that’s largely due to the fact that it’s the most prevalent art in the U.S. More instructors probably means more opportunity to run into a bad one. That doesn’t mean there aren’t quality martial artists teaching TKD, though.
Which martial art should you study and which should you avoid? I’ve always felt like that was kind of like telling them what to name their kid, or maybe more accurately which new car to buy. Figure out what you’re looking for, “test drive” a few, and appraise them as objectively as you can. What are you looking for? Do you want to practice something fun and graceful? Get into shape and win some trophies? Compete in the ring? Roll around on the ground choking people? Avoid other people sweating on you if at all possible? Learn no-nonsense self defense even if you have to get knocked around a little? The key is to figure out what you want and find someone who can not only get you there, but who you’re comfortable with and enjoy practicing with, because you’re making a pretty hefty long term commitment of your time and energy. You may have, say, a top ranked Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt instructor in your town, but if you find his personality too gruff, his classes too rough, hate rolling around on the ground, and think his practice space too smelly, you’re not going to want to go. Find an art or a couple of arts that appeal to you, and look around you area for someone qualified to teach it that you are comfortable learning from.
That sort of thing is very common in Asian martial arts. It’s just part of the culture. Some of it is woo-woo bullshit, but some of it is just a different way of describing things that you could also model with physics and kinesiology. For instance, I had an instructor tell me once that I had a blockage in my shoulder that prevented energy flow to my hand when I was attempting a punch. It sounds like crap, until you realize that a solid punch starts in your feet. You push off the ground, rotate your hip and torso forward, and then your arm throws the punch. If your shoulder or any other joints or muscles are stiff, you will lose kinetic energy and your punch will be less powerful.
There have been a few comments about TKD being subject to a lot McDojo-ism. I really wouldn’t know if that’s true in the US as I don’t live there. I did take TKD for a couple of months out of curiosity. In the particular dojo I attended there was an older Korean man that owned the place. I forget his ranking but in order to advance any more he had to go to Korea and submit his own addition to the art. A kata, I think.
The guy that actually gave most of the lessons was also Korean and looked like he’d been built specifically for kicking people’s butts. Occasionally, the older guy would give a lesson and it was a whole different animal from the younger man.
I was busted once for doing something in a sparring match that was definitely not a TKD move and the younger guy got quite peevish about it. The older man had no problems at all with what I did.
I asked him about that later and he said that when he was learning this in Korea, sparring was much more important than now and that examinations were only given once each year. The result of that was that when you were sparring for rank you didn’t want to leave a doubt in anyone’s mind who won the round.
Oh, and before I forget, let me second sleel’s point about the Muay Thai being big on conditioning. I have NEVER been that tired in my life. I believe that in Thailand they won’t even let you in the ring if you’re over 35.
Regards
Testy
Pardon, yes; I seem to have have steep and shallow mixed up. In my experience it’s really, really hard in the beginning, and I always try to mention that up front: a lot of people tend to get discouraged, especially since it doesn’t tend to feel like you’re making much progress. (Personally, in my own mind I was as clumsy and disorganized after two years of practice as I was on the first night. It wasn’t until the instructor started having me work with new students that I realized how much I’d improved.)
Also, no matter what martial art you do, stretch even on your non-training days! Make sure that you know the stretches well, and have another student or the instructor correct your form on any new stretches or warmup routines that you learn in the class, but in general your body will be a lot happier if your dojo’s stretching routine becomes a regular thing.
My understanding is that they’ll let you into the ring, but most 35 year old Thaiboxers can barely get into the ring. Thaiboxers start very young and fight as often as every two weeks, the result being that most retire by their mid-to-late twenties due to the physical demands and punishment.
Check out college courses. They’re often open to the public for a suitable fee (which is often the same as students pay) and the instructors generally know what they’re doing.
I also don’t like the dumping on karate here. A good karate studio is easy to find; it’s just that bad ones are easy to find, too.
Lastly, no, there are no actual ninjutsu teachers around, and if there were, they wouldn’t teach you. Unless you plan to learn how to break intlo a samurai house, assassinate the occupants, and escape with your honrless hide, you really shouldn’t be looking for one. The teahcers there most likely DO know some martial arts, but it’s not ninjutsu. That ignoble profession had very, very little to do with combat, and was mostly a collection of dirty-dealing, spying, forgery, scouting, survival, and otherwise screwing with people you didn’t like. The combat training was quite commonplace, and if anything, was inferior to a non-ninja samurai (yes, ninja were samurai, too). Non-ninja samurai did not spend much time learning or practicing the arts of deceit, and in fact most spent a grotesque amount of time training in combat. A ninja was probably much inferior.
Lies!! All lies of the pirate-biased media, pushing their pro-pirate agenda!
Hapkido– If you can find a ‘Just Hapkido’, school, I would recommend it. But they are very very rare.
I spent a year attending a school I had joined for the Hapkido, and was quite annoyed to discover that it was pretty much just a TKD school, with a tiny smidgen of Hapkido. I was very frustrated with this, especially when I figured out that he pretty much gave out belts, regardless of ability.
I did Kuk Sool Won for several years, in my early 20’s, and I really really liked that. Lots of Hapkido base, with some more Chinese influenced forms. Hapkido and Kuk Sool Won come from the same branch of KMA. If there was a KSW school close enough to me, I would probably start again, if only to get my belt and get back in shape…
I took “street style hapkido” for a couple of years. I loved my instructor and my class, which was a serious workout and taught me some hard-core self-defense techniques, everything we did was applicable to real-world self-defense. I remember when I moved out of the area asking my instructor a similar question–how do I find an instructor to teach me something useful? I knew I wasn’t likely to find a martial arts studio teaching street-style hapkido, so how do I choose another style?
What he told me was that it didn’t much matter what style I chose, with the exceptions that TKD is largely stylized and not terribly useful for real-world fighting, and to avoid Judo and Ju-Jitsu as students have an insanely high rate of joint injury in training.
pravnil
You’ve got a serious point about the damage. My wife was Thai and her father was a big fan of Muay Thai. I’ve only met maybe two ex-Boxers that had their brains in an unscrambles state.
We had one in Saudi for a few years. He was a short-order cook at a local hotel. He said his coach told him to leave and do something else before he wound-up stupid. He was a bantam-weight and used to hit me almost completely at will. Training is odd. They teach a few things but most of the rest of it is sparring and whipping-up on a heavy bag until your leg won’t come off the ground anymore. Then you do the other leg.
Regards
Testy
NajaNivea
Well, he’s got a point on the joint injury thing. REAL easy to do on some of those holds. I had my shoulder seriously messed-up once and had my wife rubbing Tiger Balm all over my aging carcass many times. Also, since I’m quite tall, the throws were difficult with a shorter sparring partner. Aside from those things, I really enjoyed it. Still, I think it was a very good art. There is a vast syllabus and responses to almost anything. I considered it very good for self-defense BUT it takes (a LOT) longer to learn than a straight self-defense course.
It definitely did NOT have the philosophy of doing minimal damage to your attacker, put the guy down and keep working on him until he stops trying to get up. If it were available I’d do it again.
I wish I knew more about Hapkido. I don’t think I’ve ever met someone who practiced it. Sounds interesting.
Regards
Testy