I’ve never studies the martial arts. But, it appears that many criminals carry guns these days-if this is the case, is it wise to attempt to protect yourself?-or is it smarter to throw your wallet on the ground and run?
sqrl:
Dog boxing is not really a style, in the formal sense. It is simply a description of various chinese forms/techniques which share some general properties and/or heritage. The variation that I practiced was actually filtered through Hawaiian Kempo. The “history” of dog boxing, like many things in the Chinese arts, is somewhat hazy and not always distinguishable from folklore. This is complicated, of course, by the fact that some Chinese systems almost certainly use different terms to describe their ground fighting/grappling forms. That said:
In general, dog boxing referes to a loose family of southern Chinese forms which grew out of/were developed for contest matches or duels. Dog boxing is characterized by strong use of sweeps, traps, rolls, extreme transitions in posture (standing to ground to crouch to rol to kneel to jump etc.) As a tendency, dog boxing is more likely to use elbows, chicken-beak (with wrist or fingers) and finger strikes (eagle claw, snake-ist, etc.) than standard punches. As a tendency, all kicks use the heel as a striking surface. As a tendency, dog boxing forms are much more likely to utilize sacrifice throws and marriage-of-gravity techniques than other Chinese forms. As a tendency, dog boxing forms seem most common among southern styles.
In a way, the term is no more specific then “grappling”. The techniques may be found in any kun. It is in some ways, simply a matter of emphasis.
egkelly:
If you believe that the assailant wants only your money and will not shoot you if you give it to him, drop your wallet and leave happily.
If you believe that he is going to shoot you no matter what, then take your best shot and pray. In this case, the better you are at influencing the situation, choosing your moment, making the first shot count, maintaining your focus, dealing with fear and rage, taking advantage of your environment, etc., the better your chances.
Never go against a gun unless no other option exists. Nothing in my wallet is worth risking death unnecessarily.
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
Hee hee hee. I’m surely wasn’t trying to instigate this arguement, but I am glad the OP didn’t get totally derailed. I am not very well versed in the various forms of martial arts. I primarily have experience with aikido and some brief introductions to judo and shoshin ryu. I don’t suppose that some of the more experience martial artists on the board could offer a few good webpages or email me some details so that I may become more well versed in this realm, eh?
Bless your heart, egkelly!
Yes, drop (not throw, you want to make things easy for the criminal to rob and run not harder because thay may only piss him off) your wallet and run. Do NOT drop your wallet and stick around.
Facts:
-
If the mugger is just a mugger they will NOT pursue you. They will not shoot you. They will take you wallet and flee.
-
If the mugger is also a killer, you do NOT want to stick around to find out.
Killers will kill you. Period. Begging, pleading, having kids with you, having a pretty face, etc is not going to save you. The criminal has already decided what they want to do. You don’t want to be there for whatever that is.
I’m with Spiritus – my life is worth more than my life savings (which is about three bucks right now 
).
Glitch, thanks for the input. From what little I know, I think that Aikido (sp?) might be what I need. As for the gun, maybe. Anyway, thanks for the response.
You might check out: http://jukokai.com/frames.html I didn’t get to see the Ripley’s show (and I can’t find it on the web) but it sounds like teh sort of thing they’d do. Very impressive ki demos.
Alright, just for you Jeffery…
You’re darn right I would kick Jet’s ass. I could take that half pint Mr. Fancy “Oh look how good I look when I can take 20+ tries to get it right on screen” Pants. Phhht. Four time champion. Tournaments are for losers who can’t face reality of fighting it out on the street, like I have. Besides that was in the past (1974-1979). Face it, Li is nothing more than a soft movie star now, not a trained killing machine like your’s truly. With my concreting smashing knuckles (squeezed that in just for you Lexicon) I would destroy him while he desperately seeks a look-a-like stuntman to fill in for him in hopes that I will be confused. Even if he succeeds it won’t do him any good. Years of focus and working on harnessing the power of the chemical cocktail will let me pursue my prey unto the end. Good night sweet prince.
Feel better now, Jeffery?
I’d like to put a plug in here for a little wooden wand called a ‘Kubotan’, developed by Tak Kubota. It is essentially a stick (6-8" long usually) with a keyring on the end. You use it as a keychain, and with minimal training you can improve your defensive ability quite a lot.
First of all, because it’s your keychain you will probably have it in your hand when you most need it, like when leaving a bar at night, going to your car in a parking lot after work, etc. If you are attacked, you can use it in several ways:
-
You can hold it in your hand and let the keys swing free like a flail, and smack your opponent in the face. If you have a lot of keys on your keyring, this can be pretty effective.
-
You can hold it with the keys in your palm and the end sticking out, and punch your attacker in soft pressure points like the eyes, throat, or face.
-
With more training it can be useful in grappling techniques and wrist and finger locks.
-
If you are on the ground, you can grind it into your opponent’s body in areas like the side of the knee or the hand, which will bring excruciating pain.
They are completely legal, you’ll never get hassled for owning one, and they are cheap, like 5-10 bucks. They are used in some police departments for controlling arrestees, and seem to work pretty well.
The biggest disadvantage for men is that they are harder to carry around. Women carry their keys in their purse, so it’s no big deal.
Does anyone know anything about Hapkido? I’m really interested in it and want to know if it is effective.
Thanks–Matt
Sickest application of martial arts I’ve seen real world is this guy that walks around with one of those collapsable batons in each of his trench pockets. He had taken Escrima for a while, and watching him swing those things around… I’d rather ake on Jet Li than that sick bastard.
Anyone know much on Caporeira? Is it effective at all? I’m mostly interested because of the musical tie in, I don’t expect to get in many fights, but I’d still like to know I’d be learning a few useful tricks.
http://www.madpoet.com
Clerks - Just because they serve you doesn’t mean they like you.
Hapkido was my first art. I practiced it when I was youg and found it to be enjoyable. It stresses kicks, particularly heel kicks and spinning kicks, in much the way Tae Kwon Do does. Kicks are generally delivered only as power techniques. I never used a flip kick or onstep roundhouse in a hapkido dojang. It is very good for developing flexibility, coordination and balance. The grappling, locks and throws can be quite effective and are predicated upon the idea that you should never become entangled with your opponent. Hapkido does not traditionally include matwork or ground locks. Motion is emphasized, but I never found a refined approach to oblique angles or small circle positions. Hapkido uses most standard punches and strikes. I found that elbows and smashing blows were emphasized a little more than in the Okinowan arts.
Hapkido training can be quite brutal. Many techniques attack joints and hapkido has not generally adopted the “sport” flavor of tae Kwon Do. When I was training in hapkido (1980s) contests were fought without pads and were continuous, not point. Victory was determined by clean throw/sweep, knockdown, or by judges vote after time expired. I have no idea whether that is still the rule, as I have not been a member of any hapkido association for more than a decade. I found it to be far more realistic than Tae Kwon Do, and also far more brutal. That, of course, can vary widely between schools/associations/instructors. There are a few international hapkido associations. The one I belonged to was the World Hapkido Association. Bong-Soo Han’s International Hapkido Association is probably larger/more famous. As a note of interest, hapkido and aikido both trace their lineages to the same root: Sogaku Takeda’s Daito-Ryu Aikijutso.
One caution: I have seen many Tae Kwon Do schools that also advertise hapkido. In some cases, there is a separate instruction track that truly delivers a different art. In other cases there is one class a week where the instructor goes over basic wrist locks from static positions. Watch/try enough classes to know which one you are getting, if you cannot find a dedicated hapkido dojang (assuming that you decide to pursue hapkido at all).
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
Forgot to mention, hapkido has no traditional hyungs (katas/forms). As I was taught, students were sometimes asked to improvise sequences of techniques against one or more attackers to demonstrate mastery of certain concepts/transitional skills. I have heard that some hapkido schools now use set patterns, but I have never seen one.
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
This thread is great! And I have to cast my lot with Nen. I have only been taking Aikido since July, but have enjoyed every minute. I train 3-4 times a week, and it has made a tremendous difference in my physical strength, as well as helped me gain better perspective on my daily life. I highly, highly recommend it.
Since you’ve already taken some martial arts, Scylla, I think you’ll have an easier time than me with the basic movements. Size and strength don’t matter too much-- I’ve learned to (in theory at least) throw men twice my size, and I’m a lanky girl. With every technique you’ll work with a partner, so you really learn how to size up uke to adjust your technique to fit their size/build/etc.
I think the thing I like most about it is how harmonious the techniques are. The aim is generally not to harm uke, but to incapacitate him/her, to end the fight. That way you can employ Aikido at full power, so-to-speak, whereas with Karate and some others, to use the technique full force would likely kill the opponent.
My two cents worth.
“It says, I choo-choo-choose you. And it’s got a picture of a train.”
– Ralph Wiggum
Oh yeah, and you get to use weapons in Aikido! That way I get to live out my little Shogun-esque Samurai fantasies. Hee hee.
For information the Kubotan (an excellent self defense weapon, but requires a fair amount training to learn to use properly):
Following is the address for the inventor of the Kubotan:
Shihan Takayuki Kubota
Kubotan Institute
1236 South Glendale Avenue
Glendale, CA
You can order a manual from:
John Peters
DTI
15 Cedarcliff Rd
Braintree, MA
02184
And finally you can get a kubotan itself (get the black one)
Paul Starrett
Monadnock Lifetime Products
Route 12
Fitzwilliam, NH
03447
Note: I have put some addresses here where you can order stuff about the Kubotan. If it gets removed as against the rules then please mail me (leontheneon@yahoo.com). A kubotan is not a trivial self defense weapon no matter what anybody says (in fact, the easiest way to determine if something is really effective or not is how simple AND devasting somebody claims it is… make sure to laugh and the next person who says they can give you quick, easy and totally effective self defense with a snap of the fingers).
The history of the kubotan is pretty interesting. It is an excellent lesson in taking ancient martial principles and creating something applicable for modern day self defense.
SilentKnight:
Spiritus covered it well enough. I was going to describe it as “lots of kicks”.
With the proper mindset specific techniques and styles are irrelevent. So, yes it CAN be effective. However, it really isn’t designed for modern crime survival. It was designed by slaves for slaves. Almost all kicks because the hands would be bound. Put to music so that it doesn’t look like a martial art. Hardly any schools do any sparring, so you don’t really gain even the marginal benefits that light sparring can give you. Takes and develops LOTS of coordination and flexibility. Really fun to watch too.
Beadalin:
I have always found this concept interesting.
By incapacitate most Aikido/Jujutsu instructors mean hold. This is not something you want to do in a street confrontation. And the few that mean throw … well, I have news for them… throwing (well, landing from being thrown) hurts, if it didn’t it wouldn’t stop the opponent.
Don’t kid yourself, if you can’t escape then you have to physically stop your opponent and the only way you will ultimately do that is by causing physical damage or pain. Or at least cause physical damage or pain to the point where you create the opening to escape.
I have noticed a fair number of people are attracted to Aikido because of the supposedly pacifist means of self defense. All I can see is be objective and really think about what a street fight will be like against a strong and determined (as it to hurt you) opponent. Don’t feel bad about hurting him if it means your survival or escape.
In a word, no. Karate techniques are not “Hammers of Thor”. I wish they were … I would become a robber, and a damn good one (Take that vault door)! If you are using a karate technique you better be using it full force, because if you hold back for fear that you will accidentally kill your opponent I can guarentee what will happen … it will be the karateka who ends up quite dead as his blows land ineffectively.
In the preceeding post, I mean you as in the general you not as any specific you.
sigh I really have to proofread before I hit reply.
Near the end, that should be “All I can say is be objective” instead of “All I can see is be objective”.
By the way, you want to make sure to contact Shihan Kubota to find a certified instructor in your area. Again, this is not a trivial weapon to use properly or to its best effectiveness. If you are serious about using it then take a course and don’t be so damn cheap and don’t be taken in by claims that it is a “wonder weapon” that will over you “quick, easy and effective protection” There are no talismans!
you can talk it to death…but Jet Li will beat your arse…
Baedelin:
Glad you enjoy the thread!
A thought or two, (anybody knowing better please feel free to contradict me,)
Besides some really basic basics, and two and a half years of collegiate boxing, I have little martial arts experience.
As I mentioned in this and another thread that I did get the opportunity to be the attacker in a women’s self-defense course taught at a local college. I filled in for the absent attacker on the second night, and they liked me better so I stayed for the rest of the course. By the way I think they liked me because I was able to scale my attacking to the level that they could currently fight at, and because I’m a pretty nonthreatening guy.
Anyway, I would get in these pads, and this huge football helmet type thing, and attack everybody as a rapist.
What they were being trained to do was to avoid letting me get a hold of them. They were supposed to evade my attempts to get hold of them and throw them to the ground while making a lot of noise. They were taught a couple of basic strikes and techniques.
Their goal was not to defeat or incapacitate me, (Which the instructor who was a woman said was unlikely for even a very fit and well-trained female against a determined male attacker of indifferent skill levels.) They were simply to make themselves a difficult target to encourage the rapist to look elsewhere.
There were about twenty women in the class. A couple had some martial arts training. As a rule, if I got hold of them it was all over. Even by the end of the class they were only able to hold me off for 30 seconds or so about two-thirds of the time.
Oddly enough they were not encouraged to fight past the point where they were pinned to the ground. It was recommended they go limp. THe logic was that the rapist was committed at that point, and continued struggle would force the rapist to coerce your cooperation by beating the crap out of you until you settled down.
Since rape is about power and not sex, this is often the part that a rapist looks forward to the most. If you go limp and act catatonic you take all the fun out of it. You may be spared or at least have the rapist go easier on you.
With no offense to your skills, I would be surprised if you could defeat an average thirty year old man in a real world situation. I started this thread particularly in response to the false sense of security I felt was being instilled in casual practitioners of the martial arts.
While it’s true that a hip throw works as well against 130 pound woman as a 200 pound man, the problem rests in actually getting to the point where you can use the throw.
As a much lighter opponent begins to grapple, I would naturally just tend to lift them off their center of gravity or leverage (few throws work well if you don’t have any leverage) and slam them to the ground. I would probably let my weight come down on top of them for added effect. I could probably overpower great technique from a lighter less strong foe.
A couple of people tried to throw me or grapple the first night or two of the course, and I was told to go hard on them, because there supposed to know better by now.
Nobody threw me, and I was doing this sixty times a night once a week all semester.
As I mentioned before I’m not especially gifted in these areas, and quit boxing because my ass was kicked way too much!
I am hell against woman half my size though, and I would think so are most men. A women in confrontaional situation would do best to remember this evade and flee, and make lots of noise.
Then again, you may be Cynthia Rothrock, I don’t know.