Martial arts in the really real world

Glitch: I never meant to suggest that the Kubotan was some kind of wonder weapon. But even with little or no training it is still better than having nothing. If an untrained woman gave you a punch in the face it wouldn’t do much. If she gave you the same punch with the end of a Kubotan, you’d feel it.

Even just a set of keys can help if you don’t have a Kubotan.

Of course you will be much better with it with training.

When I taught self-defense to women, I simply taught them ways to startle or hurt their attacker so they could open the distance between them and have a chance to run away. The best way to do that for the untrained person is to stomp a foot with a set of high heels, or rake the guy’s face with an outstretched key, or hit an easy-to-find pressure point like the face with something hard. A Kubotan fits the bill nicely. It’s simply better than nothing at all, no matter how much training you have.

Sam: I know you weren’t. My apologies. I should have made that clear. I wasn’t referring to your mention of the kubotan. I was referring to claims people may seem from time to time. My favorite is the noisemaker. Ever heard this thing? Real loud, ear splitting even. Boy, that could stop an attacker for sure! Yeah, take it outside sometime. It isn’t nearly as bad. But still ,maybe you say I still find it troublesome, but remembering you are just standing there listening to it. Now put yourself in the shoes of a recividist, violent, determined person? Think it’ll stop you? Ha. Two questions to answer whenever you are considering getting a “gadget”:

  1. If I were a violent criminal would I really be stopped by this? Keeping in mind with devices that cause harm that an average person can take 2-3 hits from a pistol to the center of mass before dropping. It can be hard to put yourself in those shoes, because you aren’t one, but try it. You get used to it, and it becomes easier and easier to really evaluate any so-called means of self defense.

  2. Is it as simple as it must be to work in the a real violent crime? That means the gadget must provide direct and explosive action. If it doesn’t do that, it is crap.

Finally, remember that almost anything requires practice. Sanford Strong (veteran police officer, police trainer and SWAT member) recounts a story where he drew his can of MACE and sprayed it directly in his own face. Why? Because he had never actually tried drawing and using the MACE before. If you don’t practice, what makes you think that when you stomach clenches, your brain reverts to animal instinct, you experience tunnel vision, etc that suddenly you’ll be able to operate this thing?

By the way, keys are surprisingly (well, it was surprising to me) ineffective for two reason. First, most people, especially women, simply won’t use them from their civilized mindset. However, they would have struck with their empty hand seeing it as less lethal. Second, it is real easy to hurt your own hand or wrist with keys in them. Even easier than with a punch, which is pretty easy itself. Decreasingly, self defense instructors (including myself) are recommending the use of keys as a weapon.
For enhancing the fist the best choices are:

  1. “Fighting rings”. Any ring with a nice rough surface that is higher up than the rest of the ring will do; however, it is better to get a nice professionally made one. The so called “Viking ring” is a classic. It looks like a helmet with a sharp, raised faceguard. Another classic is the “Wolf ring”, a ring in the face of a wolf.

  2. Rolls of coins inside your fist. For most women, this means a roll of dimes. To be honest, when I was taught this in a seminar offered by the Lethal Force Institute I was floored. I was always told that keys were better, and a roll of quarters in the hand would break your hand for sure. Ends up I was wrong.

I should point out that carrying any weapon leaves you open to increased legal problems especially in civil matters. This is why carrying a weapon is a highly personal decision. Expect an ambulance chaser working for the criminal you just pummelled to file suit against you claiming you wanted to beat people up and that was why you were carrying a weapon. If you get 12 jab1’s on the jury you’ll lose. Is it worth it? Is it overreaction and paranoia? That is up to you.

Personally, I carry a gun. In my view, if I need a weapon, then I need a weapon and no sense settling for anything less than the best. I used to carry a kubotan, as well, and then it got stolen. Here’s the kicker, in a classic case of not following my own rules, I have never replaced it because I have been to damn lazy. Bad Glitch. I am glad Sam mentioned it, because I ordered a replacement tonight. If it saves my life someday I have you to thank Sam.

Concerning Aikido. Lots of police trainers consider aikido to be the, bar none, best martial art for police officers. Why? Because it allows police to control suspects with a minimum of injury. This is a good thing for police officers because they want to hold the suspect and take him into custody. It is largely for this reason that, IMO and solely in my opinion, I have my doubts about aikido for the citizen who should have absolutely no interest in containing or controlling a suspect. I thought I would clarify that.

I am stunned that they would say this! Yes, when he has his full body weight on you and both hands holding you down, you should very temporarily cease resisting. The stronger and heavier man is going to be near impossible to get off. However, he has to let go or upset his balance sometime in order to get your legs open or his pants off. At this point, you must resist explosively again! It is relatively likely that a woman will be able to get him off of her. What happens then depends entirely on the situation, but hopefully an avenue of escape is available and while he recovers she escapes, if not she should consider pressing the attack (remember Attack FAST, Attack HARD, Attack AGAIN) preferably scratching at the eyes. Gross? Yes. But is being raped, tortured and killed grosser still? You decide.

Just thought I would point out that in the above post, the you is once again the general you and not a specific you.

Think about it for a second Glitch.

Your a woman. You have a large man who has succeeded in violently subduing you in spite of your best efforts on top of you. You are in a bad place because the man feels that he now has enough time to rape and abuse as he will, without fear of a passerby coming to your aid.

Before he unzips he threatens you with severe bodily harm if you try to resist further. He may even beat you or cut you a little first to prove his point and his power.

As he unzips or otherwise prepares to rape and/or abuse you, he is almost assuredly expecting that this will be your moment to try and attack again. This is what he is waiting for. This is what he is expecting. This is the whole point of forcibly raping a woman. The role that he has put himself in now says that he will be justified in doing damage to you because you’ve been warned that you are in his power. Make no mistake, you are.

At this point, your best defense is to go out of character, and not give your rapist the response he is looking for. Go catatonic.

Most likely the rapist will be frustrated by this (not always though.) He may threaten, hurt you, or otherwise force you to acknowlege him. You should placate him politely in the minimal way possible. Pretend you are a toneless answering machine, or a robot.

Remember the rapist is not looking for sex alone, he is looking to humiliate and debase. He wants a proof of his power. This is why he is not masturbating, hiring a hooker, or using a blow up doll. If you become the blow up doll ,the rape is unsatisfying and you stand a chance of not having it consummated. You may even be released unharmend as an alternate demonstration of his power (yeah, this last part sounds fishy to me too, but the instructor swears it happens.)

If you fulfil the role and fight back at the expected moment you will likely only fulfill the rapists needs.

Most likely though, you will be raped. The logic again is that at this point this is pretty much a certainty, and you might as well try to get through it as best you can.

If the rapist has acted foolishly and chosen a poor location with people nearby who might come to your aid, or you feel that you have a truly excellent chance of escape for some reason or another than by all means fight like hell.

Nope, sorry Scylla, that is just the old “Don’t resist” methodology. It is a personal choice, and some people are not prepared to do so, but consider the following:

“Strong on Defense” by Sanford Strong

Also the stats do not back up the notion of increased chance of injury:

[quote]
Over 96% of all injuries for both women who resisted or did not were abrasions, lacerations; yet, this statistic was not affected by the rapist’s wielding a weapon or determined by the victim’s resistance, as old myths delcared. When broken down between resistance or submission, there was only a 2% increase in the injury level of women who resisted.

[quote]

This is very profound. It states quite clearly that if you resist you have a 2% increased chance of abrasions or lacerations. That’s it, in return for a chance to avoid a rape altogether! Again, a personal choice, but I know the recommendation I give. Resist.

Of the 4% that received serious injury almost all of them were in a “Crime Scene #2” environment. Either in a secluded area, or caught in a home or apartment. With them resistance is even all the more important, since now you are trying to avoid not only the rape but the savage torture and beating.

Remember, the criminal has already decided what he going to do. If he wants to beat you, he is going to. If he wasn’t planning on it, he probably won’t whether you resist or not. This is a known fact.

I agree in principle Glitch. Which is why both strategies were suggested. Resist first as hard and as much as you can. You yell scream push away, try foot stomps, face rakes groin kicks, scratching, running. Etcetera etcetera.

If he still manages to beat you into submission and acquire a superior position of control, you have now reached the point that your rapist is looking forward to. If it’s a foregone conclusion here that you’re going to be raped you might as well try and deny your attacker the pleasure he seeks at your suffering and struggling by going catatonic. You’ve already given it your best shot, and are most likely dazed, beaten up a little bit , and not in full posession of your resources.

At this point an alternate strategy can’t hurt, and it may be wise to give yourself a chance to regroup and maybe facilitate overconfidence on your attackers part.

The important thing is to give it everything you have at the outset. Don’t hold back. If the attacker manages to get the upper hand and place you under his physical control despite your prolonged and best efforts, further direct struggle is probably not going to help immediately.

This is also a personal choice, and one subject to the conditions of your situation, but I think it’s a sound strategy.

Remember, this is an “if all else fails” scenario, not an immediate response.

In that respect, which I believe is how I presented it, it may be worth a try.

This is irrelevent. Facts is facts. He is off balance and an explosive reaction will topple him.

Yes, you are at that moment in his power, and that is the danger. You must get yourself out of the control of the criminal.

Also, concerning justification. Sorry, but that just doesn’t match up with anything I have know about violent criminals. They already feel they are completely justified in doing whatever is they were already planning on doing. Your resistance is not extra justification for them. You are whitebread (a common term on the street for us civilized folk).

Ayoob’s books are probably best material on this subject. “The Truth About Self Protection” chapter 1 is a good choice. Of course, there are plenty of dry (i.e. academic type) books on criminology you could go and read too, but Ayoob’s book is just easier to read and has more in it than this anyway.

There is another good book on this “Survey of Felons:…”. I’ll see if I can find it, but I think it is packed away somewhere.

Any sociology majors out there who care to comment? (I bet they would have the material at their fingertips).

Glitch,

As I mentioned at the outset, I am no expert.
You will also notice that in my inital post on this topic I mentioned that as a tactic it probably would not save you from being raped.

This is not advocating being an easy victim. This is changing tactics when the most desirable (a protracted and fierce resistance) course of action has failed to produce results. It makes sense to me.

Anybody else?

It also makes sense to believe that the rapist is looking for and expecting a resumption of struggle at the first opportunity. If he’s unzipping a zipper with a knife at your throat and his weight on top of you is this a wise time to go for a knee in the groin?

If on the other hand you feel that you have a real opportunity you should go for it no question of that, but your attacker will be expecting it.

Chances are that if things have gotten this far there is not much you can do at the moment.

Eventually there may come a time when you have shot your wad (pardon the expression) in terms of resistance, adrenaline, and strength and further struggles yield diminishing returns with increased danger. Crying “Uncle” at this point doesn’t mean you give up the right to further resistance.

Do the unexpected, go catatonic. Don’t take the first opportunity for struggle (where it is expected and planned for,) regain your resources and look for another opportunity while denying your attacker the pleasure he seeks.

I’m surprised you disagree. Maybe I’m not explaining well. Surely, you appreciate the value of a head fake or at worst mentally preparing yourself for a bad experience which now seems likely to occur and reassessing your alternatives.

Ideally you will never get to this point where you are hurt, stunned, exhausted, and have exhausted every avenue of resistance available to you.

What do you suggest should be done at this point?

Interesting thread. I have a bit to add, although I am no martial artist. I was one of the worst soldiers in the history of the U S Army. I know, I was told so by several well qualified military instructors. I am a terrible shot, and a miserable pugil stick fighter. In my entire training I was only good at one particular skill. Unarmed combat.

My instructors were described to me as “the forty most dangerous men in the world.” Since they were the training cadre for both the 82nd Airborne Division, and the 8th Special Forces, I assume the claim was not entirely specious. This is what they told my fellow soldiers, and me.

“We are not going to teach you how to kick anyone’s ass. We are not going to teach you how to win any bar fights, or beat up people. A brown belt Karate guy will kick you ass, every time. If you use what you learn here out in the civilian world, this is how it works. You get into a fight, either you win, and go to jail, or you loose, and you die. You don’t want to go out of here thinking you are some sort of bad ass, ready to push around the local bully. He’s gonna smack you around, and you are gonna get bruises. If you kill him for that, you go to jail, and we aren’t going to teach you how to win the fight, just how to kill him.”
They were quite true to their intent. We practiced only while our opponents were wearing very good cycolac (sp?) and steel armor over the centerline of their bodies. We also wore the armor, and learned that the blows we learned hurt like hell even with the armor on, and we had two guys loose consciousness just from the force of blows through the armor over the ten weeks of training. I am old, fat, and out of shape, now. I have never had reason to use any of the knowledge I gained there, but I remain confident that if appropriate, I could still do it. I could still get my butt kicked in a bar fight, too. Killing and fighting are not too much related, as it turns out.

Never go to crime scene two. Never. Die at crime scene one, if you are gonna die.

Tris

Imagine my signature begins five spaces to the right of center.

Well, I don’t have the experience in it that most of you have, but I’ve noticed some arts that imho work better than others, and have some opinions that are probably mostly speculation, but I’ll share them anyway. :slight_smile:

I’ve taken a few styles of Karate and lightly sparred with friends who have taken anything from Tae Kwon Do to Hapkido.

Some of the styles of karate were about style, the moves were shown over and over again and we just learned to parrot them, kind of like dance class with punches. This is partly the style and partly the instructor. The styles often focused on belts, as in, learn these moves to get a belt, not learn the moves that help in your situation. Especially useless were the moves like the high kicks, the complex stuff. I’ve never seen it done except by the best (in technical skill) martial artist I know, and only then against an unskilled partner.

To contrast this, I took Uechi-Ryu (sp?) for a while and found it incredibly effective. It probably also helped a bit though that I had an instructor who sounded a bit like Glitch. This style focused on short fast movements, the kicks that they used were more like stomps, and used from that sort of range. Even the knee shots were done at arms length, unlike the more distant styles I had been used to. The philosophy of the style was good too, everything that could hurt the opponent was used. Why block when you can smash the opponents arm, then why let them take it back when you can grab and break, etc. The basic circle block extends perfectly into a smash, wrap, and hold while the other arm hyper extends their elbow.
The short fast style fits much more closely with the ‘street’ fighting I’ve done.

I’ve never been in a fight where I’ve been able to control the distance (keeping it distant). The enemy can always close faster than I can back away. A style that accepts this and is designed to function in close works a lot better for the positions I found myself in.

As for grappling… Well, against two opponents, you’re toast if it ends up there. You’ll be applying a choke hold while bad guy #2 takes a leisurely kick at your head. It’s important to know enough about grappling that it doesn’t take you by suprise, but for most people’s purposes, by the time it gets to grappling, you’ve already lost.

I can see the situation being different for a policeman or bouncer, who are expected to pacify, not break, the opponent. But I’ve only ever been in one fight where I had any intention of going easy. (When I pissed off a friend who was drunk and had just broken up, he was mad in general, not at me. Breaking him wouldn’t have helped either of us.)

I think that the most important tool is attitude, not only being willing to hurt the opponent, but being ready and not freezing up. Just a basic no-skill punch to the face will hit most people (I doubt more than 1 in 20 could block a punch they didn’t know was coming) and would be more effective than a complex but never used technique you didn’t use to the full extent. As Glitch and others said, sparring and SBTing are the only way to achieve the readiness for action.

An attitude of wanting to subdue someone who attacks you in laughable, imho. If someone wants to hurt you, they’ve just handed you a signed form saying they renounce all rights to civilized treatment. Break them until they stop moving. If they’re still alive, well, lucky them, but it’s not really your concern unless you’re highly trained enough that you should be expected to know how to subdue without hurting. (Like a bouncer, cop, etc.)
The arts I’ve found effective when used against me and the close-range style I’ve ended up with (and been attacked with most often) are Uechi-Ryu karate and Hapkido. Both are very violent arts, with little concern for pacifying an opponent. Uechi-Ryu concentrates on beating someone very hard and very fast, not as much in sensitive places as everywhere, with a preference towards especially breakable bits. Hapkido is, to my eyes, Akido for bad-asses. It’s the same sort of thing my mom takes (Akido) but without the focus on letting the opponent walk away (or ever again for that matter). It extends the holds a bit farther till they become breaks, and it teaches doing this on the fly, not landing on and holding the opponent.
One thing both of these arts have in common is that they both de-emphasize style and stance. There is a stance in Uechi-Ryu, but it’s a basic forward facing standing position with the legs bent a bit to drop the center of gravity and the arms up, ready to attack or defend. None of this lame horse stance or anything.

My friend who had taken Hapkido was a scary person, I’ve never had more of a feeling of “he could utterly destroy me if he wanted to” than from this guy. Not because his attitude was such, but because everything he had trained to do ended in a joint or bone being rendered useless.

For defense, take a basic defense course and carry pepper spray and that key-wand that people mentioned. And use them. Chances are that you’ll never meet anyone who knows enough of a martial art to matter, people who can invest years in training rarely have to mug people for drug money.

If really feel the need for defense against trained people, take a quick, close, and brutal art.

This is a point that could end up in the GD, but I’ve never met anyone who I’ve considered a good fighter who had worked with the ‘Ki’ side of the arts. I don’t believe it helps at all except in the discipline area, and only if you feel you want that. It won’t make you more effective of a fighter.

Not to make light of the discussion of self defense, but I did want to thank Glitch for his affirmation that he would kick Jet Li’s a$$.

Thanks Glitch.

Jeffery

Scylla:

What I disgree with is the following:

When the rapist is on top of you the fight it over.

This is simply untrue. The fight is over when it is over. That means it is over when your will is gone. For some this the moment they are attacked.

The self defense instructor you worked for seems to have equated the rapist having succeeded in getting you to the ground with the victim no longer having the resources to “win” (i.e. escape). This is false.

As you know, my dojo is focused on crime survival and uses scenario based training as its primary mode to developing the skills needed for crime survival. We typically do rape scenarios once a week. We start from the first moment of the attack to the last. Whether that be a sudden attack or an interview. I would say a good half of the time the women get thrown to the ground, but still have plenty of fight left even after having done the scenario a few times already. It all comes down to the will to fight on. The energy reserves of the human body are staggeringly high when the fight-or-flight syndrome kicks in. If you are still concious and aware enough to be thinking “Now, is the time for me to go catatonic”, then you still have a fighting chance.

I also object to the notion that continued resistance increases chance of injury. Please see the stats in the previous post.

Finally, my studies in criminology and violent crime suggests that going catatonic is not going to affect the outcome in the slightest. The rapist doesn’t care if you are struggling or are a blow up doll. He sees the situation from his own view, which is that he is going to force himself on a woman. The woman has already fought back, he knows she doesn’t want this. Hell, even if he found a woman who did in his mind she doesn’t and that is what is important to him.

Concerning the knife at the throat. I originally wrote a paragraph on this, but it seems to shallow. This is too deep and intense a subject to convey here in “500 words or less”. All I will say is “Rule #3 - Expect to be hurt” and “How badly do you not want to be raped?”. See Sanford Strong’s “Strong on Defense” for the best discussion on this. Again, I wish I could summarize it into a single simple quote or concept, but it takes me months to get it fully across to the people in my dojo so that they really understand it.

I bet you I know him. :slight_smile:

To be honest, I didn’t start taking aikido for self defense. It is a very fluid style but the idea that it’s pacifistic is in err. Techniques employed in aikido have the effect of leaving the uke open; however, if the proper ukemi isn’t taken, the nage has the option of various strikes. When sparring in class (in my dojo at least) we choose not to take advantage of these openings – we elect to protect both ourselves and our partners – but if it were malevolent situation, the opening are both available and encouraged to be utilized.

Beadalin, it’s good to see a fellow aikidoka on the board!

Wow – go have a life for a few hours and look what happens.

  1. Keys as a defensive weapon: They stink. An untrained person is far more likely to hurt them selves when trying to use them, especially if they try that “keys extending through the fingers” routine. The best thing you can do with keys is to throw them as hard as you can at the attackers face before he can close distance. Of course, since you quite often will not know the attack is going to occur until distance is already closed, that use is often negated. Do have your keys in hand when you walk to your car. The main benefit of this is that it gets you into the car as quickly as possible. If you have your key ready in your hand, then you can use it as a stabbing. Do not shift position, simply squeeze your thumb and forefinger together as hard as you can and strike. The only target that you should choose is an eye. (Actually, it can be quite effective inside a sinus, too, but that should not be a target you aim for.) Do not rely heavily on this technique; it is fairly easy to stop, but if you connect it greatly increases your options for the next action.

  2. Self defense/anti-rape seminars: I tought these for a while. The part I felt was worthwhile were the exercises in awareness, anticipating threats, avoiding the appearance of a desirable target, etc. The part women seemed to be looking for were “secret weapons” that would let them feel secure walking alone in a bad part of town. I became discouraged and stopped teaching the seminars. They were lucrative, but I walked away feeling like a used car salesman.

  3. Aikido is not a gentle art when practiced at high levels. I am not an aikidoka, but I have a few friends who are *sandan[/] or higher, and they have let me participate in a few of their workouts. I don’t remember any times when I have hit the walls with greater force or repetition. It is not the art for me. I personally feel they have restricted their focus too finely – Ueshiba’s original concept required all students to have a black belt in another style before beginning aikido training, I believe – but I have great respect for those who practice the art at a high level.

  4. Going limp: Unless you are trying to avoid being eaten by a predator that avoids carrion, I do not recommend it. Scylla, I do not discount your experience. It is difficult for a woman to dislodge a much larger man once he has her pinned to the ground. Going limp, however, simply surrenders to whatever situation the attacker was trying to force her into in the first place. My readings in this, and my experience with both attackers and victims, agrees with what Glitch has presented. It is unlikely that the attacker will change his intentions significantly based upon your actions. He has his goal already set. The only question is whether he succeeds in achieving it. He is not likely to kill you because you resist. He is not likely to let you live because you surrender. He will try to kill you or not because that is what his goal was from the beginning.

  5. Tris: I do not generally recommend that people rely on old training which they have not exercised for some time. The techniques may be very effective. Applying the techniques properly in a critical situation requires an instinctive utility that I would not wish to rely on unless I knew the skills were “fresh”. On point two, though, I could not agree with you more. Never allow yourself to be taken to “crime scene 2”. Your odds of being seen alive again shrink drasticaly when you are moved to a location of teh attacker’s choice.

  6. Uechi-Ryu is a brutal and effective art. Body conditioning is greatly stressed and as a rule the techniques are powerful, practical and basic. I do not know if I know the instructor Whitenight was referring to, but I know the instructor who won the Uechi-Ryu invitational tournament in 1998 (I think – it might have been 1997). He is a vvery dangerous man.

  7. I have nothing against chi (or ki) arts. Chi development is an integral part of many fine styles, including some that I have practiced. That said, I have never seen a chi demonstration that was clearly honest and could not be duplicated without reference to the metaphysical. I view *chi[\i] as a sometimes useful metaphor for the mental aspects of martial training. This does place me in the minority of Chinese (or Chinese influenced) practitioners. I do like using the *chi[\i] metaphor in focused meditation, though. I just dono’t rely on it to strike my opponent dead from 20 paces. (And if I see the “unbendable arm” demonstration one more time I am going to rip the arm in question out of its socket and beat someone with it!!)


The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

Damn. You forget one lousy “i” . . .

OK. You forget on lousy “i” and the difference between a slash and a backslash! Sheesh, you see what I mean, Tris, even a few ours of inactivity can degrade one’s skills.

You get that feeling too, eh?

I’ve never taught a generic self defense course, but the friends of mine who have all agree. People enlisting in these courses are expecting to learn in a single day what yondans take years to understand. My friends ceased that kind of instruction because they felt that the students would be in greater danger with a false sense of confidence in the ablility to defend themselves.

Wow, someone who understands it’s not the hippie style! I’m not sure if you were stating that you weren’t certain about the requirement of a black belt to enter Morihei Ueshiba’s school, but if you were in doubt, it was necessary. It is the view of some aikidoka and sensei that overcoming the engrained practices of other styles can be inhibiting – I suppose it just hampers further development initially, but there is clearly the advantage of already having the “basics.”

I am sneaking this post in from work, so forgive me if it isn’t as thought-out and concise as it ought to be.

Glitch:

You’re right, a street fight would be nasty, and my aim would be to harm my attacker enough to get the hell out. The sensei at my dojo is very practical, and generally tells us how a technique would work in a bar fight or street confrontation.

His argument is that the average man (or woman) will not know how to take a fall, and so after being thrown they will need at least a few seconds to recover, which would be long enough for you to take further action, be it kicking them in the ribs, running away, whatever. He has also taught me a few basic non-Aikido self defense moves, like a thumb jab to the throat, and has shown me how to work them into Aikido techniques. There are also many Aikido techniques that are far from considerate-- quite vicious maneuvers (neck twists and pressure points and the like) to use on really determined attackers. I think it’s important to note that even though I know how to take falls, and know exactly what technique uke is going to use, the technique will still render me absolutely helpless for as long as the person chooses to pin me.

Another thing that I meant by “harmonious” is that the vast majority of techniques are based on blending your movement with that of the attacker, to turn their own energy against them. If some jerk throws a punch at my stomach, rather than try to block all that incoming force, I deflect it and use it to overbalance him. It’s pretty cool to see it in action-- it’s not so much pacifist as allowing me to avoid injury from someone bigger and stronger.

And thanks for the insight about Karate, it looks like I was misinformed (although now that I’ve seen the term, I kinda wish I still believed it was all about the “Hammers of Thor”!).

Scylla:

Cynthia Rothrock I am not. And you and Glitch raise some very valid issues about rape and the best way to handle an attacker, especially as a woman.

No offense taken. After only what, 7 or so months of Aikido training, I in no way feel competent to take on an earnest attack, especially when the closest I have come to a physical fight in real life is a nasty look or two. I think any responsible instructor, no matter what the art, would be sure to give their students a clear understanding of their skill level; I am reminded of my own low standing when I work with sensei. He can have me down and pinned before I can blink.

In my enthusiasm for my newfound sport, I did sort of ignore the subject of this thread. In the really real world, Aikido will not be effective, IMHO, until the student is second or first kyu, which would likely take many years. BUT, once you are past the epileptic shambling stage (I’m solidly in it still), Aikido would be extremely effective in allowing you take control of any confrontational situation.

Any thoughts on what I’ve said here, Nen? I’d love to hear what a more experienced aikidoka has to say.

And Scylla, I have to say I dig your handle-- my fish are named Scylla, Charybdis, and The Kraken. :slight_smile:

Beadalin:

I suppose that I am obligated to clear one thing up first: I am hardly a more experienced aikidoka. I’ve been training for about ten months and will be testing for gokyu on Saturday. My instructor is of the mind that one should be performing at the level above the rank for which one tests, i.e. I have yonkyu abilities, therefore I can test for gokyu. I suppose it’s nice in that regard because there’s no risk of failing.

Pertaining to your thoughts on “real life” aikido, I think that you have a slight misconception. I agree that one needs to be an ikkyu at minimum to have an inkling about what to do in a bar brawl without sustaining injury (preferably a dan of some sort which I think Spiritus and Glitch will probably vouch), but the method of neutralizing the attacker is a bit hinky. I don’t think the “average Joe” opponent could even get to the stage in any particular waza to take the fall. Ukemi is an extremely difficult thing for those who have had no exposure to it, thus blending with the nage would be nearly impossible. Taking the fall is an active choice. As aikidoka, we sacrifice a moment of balance to avoid injury or death. Many other martial arts practice extensive conditioning so that one can have a blow inflicted upon them and continue, but this is not the case with aikido.

::Back on point:: An ordinary attacker will not blend nor see the proper ukemi as an option. This inability leads to the openings which one may take advantage of in an ugly situation and the method of neutralizing an opponent. Don’t get me wrong, there are techniques which can be performed without inflicting pain. If my sister were to get pissed off and attack me I wouldn’t employ a technique which would be detremental to her well being, but I couldn’t imagine the average joe would be able to take a spectacular breakfall from a kotai nikkyo or kote gaeshi or even manage make it through the technique to the point where the fall was their choice.

As for the implementation of a little jujitsu, that’s always fun.

On a side note, I’ve got to swing up to Minneapolis in August for a wedding. I don’t know that I’ll have much free time, but in case I manage to escape for a few hours can you recommend a good dojo in the area?

Beadalin:

I suppose that I am obligated to clear one thing up first: I am hardly a more experienced aikidoka. I’ve been training for about ten months and will be testing for gokyu on Saturday. My instructor is of the mind that one should be performing at the level above the rank for which one tests, i.e. I have yonkyu abilities, therefore I can test for gokyu. I suppose it’s nice in that regard because there’s no risk of failing.

Pertaining to your thoughts on “real life” aikido, I think that you have a slight misconception. I agree that one needs to be an ikkyu at minimum to have an inkling about what to do in a bar brawl without sustaining injury (preferably a dan of some sort which I think Spiritus and Glitch will probably vouch), but the method of neutralizing the attacker is a bit hinky. I don’t think the “average Joe” opponent could even get to the stage in any particular waza to take the fall. Ukemi is an extremely difficult thing for those who have had no exposure to it, thus blending with the nage would be nearly impossible. Taking the fall is an active choice. As aikidoka, we sacrifice a moment of balance to avoid injury or death. Many other martial arts practice extensive conditioning so that one can have a blow inflicted upon them and continue, but this is not the case with aikido.

::Back on point:: An ordinary attacker will not blend nor see the proper ukemi as an option. This inability leads to the openings which one may take advantage of in an ugly situation and the method of neutralizing an opponent. Don’t get me wrong, there are techniques which can be performed without inflicting pain. If my sister were to get pissed off and attack me I wouldn’t employ a technique which would be detremental to her well being, but I couldn’t imagine the average joe would be able to take a spectacular breakfall from a kotai nikkyo or kote gaeshi or even manage make it through the technique to the point where the fall was their choice.

As for the implementation of a little jujitsu, that’s always fun.

On a side note, I’ve got to swing up to Minneapolis in August for a wedding. I don’t know that I’ll have much free time, but in case I manage to escape for a few hours can you recommend a good dojo in the area?