Martin Heidegger

The short answer to the original question is that Heidegger’s personal foibles don’t have anything to do with the influence of his writings on philosophy – just as Francois Villon is still a great poet, Charles Matthew Dodgson has a secure place in math, Felix Furtwangler is still one of the great orchestra conductors, and Pier Paolo Passolini has a secure place in the development of cinema. Personal factors, however unsavory, don’t bear on the matter of one’s “professional” status and influence.

However, I would challenge the characterization of him as the most influential philosopher of the 20th century on two grounds. First, because the team of Russell and Whitehead have had far, far more influence than Heidegger, since their work on the Principia Mathematica not only revised the foundations of mathematics, but had enormous influence on mathematical logic and symbology and spread out from there to linguistics, semiotics, information theory, computers, and AI. Second, though, I think any philosopher who merely lived in the 20th century has to take second place to the thinker who missed that qualification only by a few months. Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzche’s influence on 20th century thought of all kinds has been so vast that nobody else even comes close.

Bill, welcome to the Straight Dope Message Boards, glad to have you with us.

When commenting on one of Cecil’s columns, it’s helpful to others if you provide a link to the column you are commenting on. Helps keep everyone on the same page. Yes, at the moment, that column is on the front/home page, but in a few days it will slip into the Archives and be harder to locate.

So, it’s How did a Nazi jerk like Martin Heidegger…

Being something of a cynic about post-modernism, my first thought when I saw that column was, “Martin who? Nobody can understand those postmodern philosophers anyway.” One physicist, who claimed not to even understand most postmodernist jargon, somehow managed to trick a philosophy journal into publishing an essay he wrote parodying postmodernism without them realizing it was a parody. I’ve once or twice had to read postmodernist essays in college, and many of them were completely incomprehensible.

Seriously, most people don’t really seem to follow modern philosophy very closely. I can’t even make sense of Kant. So, it kind of stands to reason that most people - myself included - can really judge who the most influencial 20th century philosopher is. That’d make it pretty easy for people who actually do follow it to slip in a character better known for being a Nazi jerk for being the most influencial philosopher of the century.

Cecil is right on with his answer…

But I am curious – Bill Patterson said that Nietzsche is the most influential for 20th century philosophy.

I don’t think so.

In what arena?
In Philosophy of Science? No, Wittgenstein, Whitehead, Russell, and others are ahead of him and I don’t see how they build on anything he did…

Ethics? Hmm. Well, ok maybe… but how? The closest theory to his would be Logical Objectivism (spouted by Ayn Rand) –
And if there is somebody that I don’t know about… I think that Nietzsche’s antecedents need to be given some credit.
I am speaking of Comte and Rousseau

Linguistics – He was impressive in philology, yes. but in the umbrella of linguistics i think Choamsky is necessarily above him.

Ideology/Philosophy of Science – I almost didn’t want to do this at first, because he didn’t really create the virulent Nationalism that became fascism – Hitler just used that as a launching point.
But let’s go ahead and give him some credence becuase of the body count of the Holocaust – I think 6 million is the number that is most respected.
Sorry again, he falls short of Marxism:
Stalin: 20-40 million (we’ll use 20 million)
Mao: 20 million
----------------
40 million right there – read Bauemeister for more on that.

Theology – To be honest I am not that knowledgeable about that but in what reading I have done, I would say not.

Now, before it seems like I am a Nietzche basher… I’m not. but he wasn’t all that.

I became enthralled with Heidegger before finding out how deep his Nazism ran. When new book on the subject came out I was stunned. Angry. How could someone who made such deep sense, who brought out the poetry in philosophy . . . be a person I otherwise would detest?

Is it because he really isn’t a great philosopher? No. (Cecil’s quote is not lucid – and out of context – but Heidegger is understandable at some level for many people.) I took a class in Heidegger, and talked with a friend’s German uncle who taught philosophy in Germany. Not all philosophers “get” Heidegger, but when talking with one who does, it’s like being tuned into an elevated communications channel.

While I’ve not read much Heidegger after finding out about the degree to which he supported and helped the Nazis, I came to terms with the two aspects of his behavior after considering the prison experiments where ordinary people are asked to play the roles of prisoners and guards. People “playing roles” became genuinely brutal to one another.

Then there’s the experiment where one person applies a shock to another person behind a screen. As I recall, a dial increased the shock severity. When the hidden person started screaming to stop the experiment (the screams were faked) most people continued to increase the current after the “experimenters” told them they had to, as it was part of the experiment.

My conclusion? Most people will inflict terrible harm on others with a modest amount of peer pressure. One doesn’t forgive Heidegger’s evil actions, but at least one can understand why they happened.

?

Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, perhaps?

Yes, & while we’re at it: Wilhelm Furtwängler; Pier Paolo Pasolini. & also, while I realize that the idea of Lewis Carroll as sexual deviant is now as firmly lodged in the public’s head as the idea that Shakespeare didn’t write his works, it’s a myth that’s recently been demolished. The “girls” Carroll admired were quite frequently mature women (in their teens & twenties & more): the Dodgson family after his death, worried about the potential scandal, instead deliberately contrived to make people think that his relationships were with prepubescent girls. They hadn’t realized that this would look even fishier a century later. There’s a careful dissection of the myth (& in particular the exaggerations & embellishments about Carroll’s emotional involvement with Alice Liddell) in an issue of the TLS earlier this year.

As for Heidegger, while I’m not sympathetic to those out to dismiss his work purely because of his Naziism, I think that to insist on the purity of the text, independent of the author, as the OP does is incorrect. (1) this is to write off millennia of history in which philosphy was not seen as purely a matter of texts but as a way of life: cf. ancient Greek philosophers for instance. The idea of philosophy as a canon of texts & core problems isn’t necessarily a given. (2) how does one separate a text from its context of reception? Especially one as complex as Being & Time, where one’s understanding of the text is necessarily filtered through an institutional history that ultimately must be traced back to Heidegger himself via students like Arendt?

Cecil on Lewis Carroll. While Cecil concludes that he was probably harmless, I’ve still got some serious doubts about a fellow who would want to take nude pictures of a six year old without a chaperone.

From the OP, meanwhile:

While Russell and Whitehead were philosophers (in addition to being mathematicians), and their work did have profound effects on mathematics and related fields, I’m not aware that either of them had much impact on philosophy. If we’re going to look at the impact of their mathematical findings on philosphy, then I would argue that Gödel deserves more of the credit.

Not to quibble too much with Cosmos, but Godel (how’d you get the umlaut in there?) was a strict mathematician.

There’s a major difference between Heidegger and the Milford (???) experiment you talk about here.

The Milford experimentees, while they did go all the way up on the “Shock Scale,” were often quite distrubed about the shockings at some point, and continued only after some “persuasion” from confederates. Heidegger himself joined willingly and eagerly, being one of the first to persecute Jews and non-Nazis personally. And in fact, he actively supported and Nazis until the war’s end.

Well, most of the time Dodgson did bring chaperones along, but it’s still pretty creepy. Even creepier is that taking naked pictures of preteen girls didn’t have anything nearly like the same stigma attached to it in Victorian times that kidde porn has today. Some psychologists say people have to do things that are outside of their social norms to be considered deviant. I think that they must have let too many deviants be influencial enough in Victorian society to allow kiddie porn to be a socially acceptable passtime.

The connection between Heideggar and his philosophy becomes uncomfortable due to the fact that Marty gave an interview in 1954 in which he explained quite clearly how his Nazism was an intellectual consequence of his philosophical work. To read Heideggar is to read that which caused him to choose Nazism.

The interview, if I’m correct, is “Only God Can Save Us: The Spiegel Interview”, published posthumously in 1976 in Der Spiegel 23, 193-219.

The greatest? The greatest WHAT?!! Dammit, I AM a student of philosophy (and a B.Th.) and I STILL can’t make head or tail out of Martin Heidegger’s b.s. The statement (when stripped of the floral bumff) that “being is being” (Dasein… ist dasein) is not terribly enlightening. The greatest existentilaist ever was Soren Kierkegaard - 18th-19th century but his work is still influential (you don’t have to live in a century for your work to be influential in it … Oppenheimer’s work is still scaring the crap out of 21st century civilisation).
I hold to the opinion that Ludwig Wittgenstein’s work shits all over Heidegger’s. His work in semantics and linguistics is arguably the most lucid work of its’ kind - Russell and Whitehead were also OK in their respective fields (although I am still looking for any evidence, existential or otherwise, to support Whitehead’s assertion that God is always changing - Kierkegaard is revolving at high speed!) Kazimierz Ajdukewicz’s work in the field of epistemology was also extremely clever (although, amazingly, little known even by philosophers).

Dodgson, deviant or otherwise was at best a mediocre mathematician.

Well, since that’s how he spelled it, it seems rude to do otherwise.

Jabba,

I wanted to know how to put the umlaut in there.

Chunda21, what?
I am not going to read this thread anymore because now we are getting into simple dogmatism. Everybody just running around spouting off the little slice they read. Next we are going to have some idiot saying Kaufman is the man because of critiques. People like you are why I stopped studying philosophy in school. You always think you have THE answer

It doesn’t matter what you thought of Heidegger. Some VERY important philosophers (by important I mean philosophers that were taken seriously in their day – like Sartre and Camus, and even Russell) thought of him as important and influential

I had dinner with some Chicago-area academics on Saturday night, and I asked them whether they agreed that Heidegger was the most “influential” (I used the word from the column headline) philospher of the 20th century.

The answer was mostly yes.

There was discussion of Nietzche, but he was rejected as being too early. Russell and Whitehead were mentioned but were summarily dismissed. Heidegger triumphed in the “influence” category–he apparently had plenty of proteges. Several anecdotes were told about the “cult” of adulation/weird secrecy/limited access to the man himself which he apparently encouraged.

Ultimately, the only dissent was from the oldest and most distinguished scholar at the table: he held out for Leo Strauss, a conservative, return-to-great-books-type thinker (Chicago school) who also has a claim to “influence,” because of the followers he has who are currently active. Here’s a link to a short summary of who Strauss is–biased against Strauss, but the best I could find with a quick google.

Everyone agreed Heidegger himself was a Nazi jerk, but there was a side argument as to whether this really grew out of his thought or whether he was just a self-serving pragmatic oblivious bastard.

I had a good time listening in. Now if I could just get Cecil to come to my dinner parties.

:smack: Sorry for the misunderstanding. Hold down Alt and type 0502 on the number pad.

It’s the Milgram experiment. “. . . subjects were led to believe that they were delivering ever more powerful electric shocks to a stranger, on the orders of a white-coated researcher. Most were distressed by the situation, but two-thirds delivered the highest level of shock ­ labeled “danger - severe shock.” Like some of Zimbardo’s guard subjects, some of Milgram’s were anguished afterward by the revelation of their dark potential.”

I don’t remember Heidegger’s stance being presented quite as active and extreme as you represent, but it was sufficiently extreme for me.

The open issue is how a mindset like his is established. Whether it’s peer pressure or a blind desire to confrom to social norms without question, the underlying impetus seems (in part) the same. It stems from people’s desire to avoid going against the social grain – combined with fear of personal confrontation.

The reasonable thing to do when trapped into an experiment being the agent causing someone else extreme pain is to refuse to participate. As I recall, no one in the experiment did this. It seems to take a kind of courage (to question the validity of the reasons for causing someone pain, to stand up to the experimenters) that few people have.

Add to this a bigoted attitude, and perhaps quite a few fascists and their like might be explained. The remedy seems (to me) to be personal courage combined with lack of bigotry. And education – but this last wasn’t what Heidegger lacked.

Jabba - thanks… but where do I look that sort of thing up?

There are a number of misconceptions on display here:

Cecil’s column: I find this site very entertaining. But anyone who comes here for nuanced scholarly analysis is out of their minds. His facile, Readers’ Digest description of Heidegger’s philosophy is a case in point.

There are two Martin Heideggers. The first, the existentialist Heidegger, as described by Cecil, is a misconception not only 50 years out of date but based on sub-par philosophers like Sartre who had absolutely no understanding of him and attempted to lump him in with ethico-humanist philosophers like Schopenhauer and Kierkegaard. Heidegger himself had no use for Parisian existentialism and repeated, again and again, that his was not yet another humanist Philosophy of Man. Derrida, in a collection of interviews called Points (which also deals with the Nazi thing) expresses bewilderment that anyone could have found a humanist philosophy in Heidegger. Anyway, this kind of obtuse interpretation is why no one reads Sartre anymore.

The second is the more recent Heidegger popularized by the Post-Structuralists, especially Jacques Derrida. In this version, Heidegger dissects humanist thinkers like Kant and Hegel to find inconsistancies and aporias in their thinking (what he called the “destruction of philosophy”)–a technique that Derrida would later borrow for Deconstruction. Despite what Sartre believed, Heidegger offers no philosophy or prescriptive view of “existence”. This Post-Structuralist interpretation of Heidegger is far closer to his actual intentions. For example, Heidegger always used to correct misunderstanding that the term “Dasein” refers to an actual “person” and that his philosophy was in any way a critique of emprical existence. He was content to leave that stuff to the priests and politicians–in his books anyway.

The analysis of Dasein in Being and Time and his essays on Holderlin and Nietzsche, in which he eschews a quasi-religious humanist rhetoric in favor of something that uncannily resembles what would later be called Structuralist and Post-Structuralist analysis, has been hugely influential on The Frankfurt School, Bataille, Levi-Strauss, Derrida, Lacan, Paul de Man, Derrida and just about everyone else involved in Post-Structuralism and Cultural Studies.

Heidegger’s Naziism: I suppose your reaction to his having been a Nazi would be dependant on how much influence you believe “Martin Heidegger” had on the texts that bare his name. There is a school of thought that finds the notion of authorial intent suspect and so, according to this thinking, the life of the author would have minimal bearing on our response to his texts. Instead, the text is simply viewed as a collection of signs contextualized by the political and cultural mileu in which they were produced. Interestingly, Heidegger himself tended to use this kind of analysis. Another school, though not very popular these days, still has some converts. This school, popular in the 30s, uses a crude brand of Freudianism to psychoanalyze the text based on what’s known about the personal life of the author. I guess in Heidegger’s case you’d try and find a Nazi subtext to Being and Time. This is exactly the kind of analysis used in some of the books produced in the 90s, mentioned by the above poster, that attempted to link Heidegger’s philosophy with Naziism.

Lewis Carroll, Pasolini, Francois Villon: I don’t know about linking Heidegger’s Naziism to any of these guys. I think it does a disservice to them. Carroll is no longer viewd as a pedophile for a very simple reason: our view of pedophilia, as projected onto Victorian society, doesn’t take into account the fact that Victorians idealized children in a strange, asexual manner (the “Cult of the Child”) and produced thousands of the kinds of seemingly prurient images that Carroll produced. Carroll was completely asexual and died a virgin.

Villon killed a priest, by mistake, after the priest leered at Villon’s girlfriend and grabbed at his crotch. What would you have done? Pasolini, who did frequent male prostitues and was eventually killed by one, was a generally healthy gay male. I don’t think I’d link any of this behavior with Naziism or even deviancy.

Heidegger’s being the “most influential” philospher of the 20th century: Wittgenstein and Nietzsche were undoubtedly the most influential philosophers of the 20th century. While Heidegger has had a huge impact on French and American critical theory and philosophy, W and N have influenced art, architecture, history, poilitical science, psychology, the philosophy of science and numerous other fields in nearly every western country.