Let me get in on this Standard American English hijack since my link to WaPo started it. I looked at the tweets and I’m not seeing what JoelUpchurch. It’s texting language. 2 for to. 4 for for. idk. ily. U for you. msg for message. yo for your(Ebonics, I know). There’s nothing there that says he can’t speak SAE. I doubt any book report he ver did looked like that.
I was a black teenager once.
I wonder if I were capable of saying the words “I’m begging you!” back in those days. It’s hard for me to recollect things like this due to my inferior cognitive skills. I’m so very frustrated by the big words I’m always hearing! But my mother worked, so it is not my fault. And then there was that time my father put me in the washing machine…
What can you do but put on a hoodie, smoke a blunt, and beat people up?
No, to be honest, I think you guys are too dumb to understand there are specific neurological differences between an adult and a teenager. Yes, I’m preening (where’s my uropygial gland?) because there’s no way you can argue that Martin was as culpable as Zimmerman when study after study has shown that teenagers do not process information the same way rational adults do. It’s far more convenient to dismissively label Martin as a thug, uneducated, and a gangster. Which is funny because Zimmerman, your home boy, is over there beating women and bragging about it online. Notwithstanding the annual two minutes of hate posters have about OJ turning Nicole Simpson into a throatless, bloody pulp, I’m surprised how Zimmerman’s violent past gets a wink and nod. It’s almost as if violence against women doesn’t mean shit while plasma concentrations of 1.5 ng/mL of THC represents a smoking gun that Trayvon was a battle-hardened “gangsta”.
- Honesty
[quote=“Larry_Mudd, post:1934, topic:619125”]
Since we’re on the subject, I’m curious to know what you think about the discrepancies between Zimmerman’s contemporaneous account of Martin’s behaviour to police dispatch (where Martin remained across the way and fled when he saw that he was being watched) and the accounts he gave later in the investigation, (where Martin approached his truck and circled it menacingly, prompting him be fearful enough to make sure the door was secure.)
What explains this best?[ol][li]This actually happened, but Zimmerman simply didn’t think it was worth mentioning to police dispatch at the time.[]This is plausibly explained by the subtle mutability of memory.[]Zimmerman invented this detail after the fact, in order to support his claim of self-defense.[/ol][/li][/QUOTE]
The contemporaneous account of course. Did they release Zimmerman’s statement’s today or you just making a hypothetical? Anything that he says that disagrees with what what he told the 911 operator or the physical evidence is going to be very suspect.
You have to understand that the problem isn’t that witnesses are lying, but that humans can’t remember things accurately. Things that you see and hear first hand, things you are told or hear about or things you see in a movie or on a television show all do into the same pile and your brain sucks at keeping things straight.
That is why the actual 911 calls are the best evidence. That is a lot less memory involved.
Actually there was a story today about witnesses changing their stories.
Show me a study that says it’s unlikely that a 17 year old is able to understand that the appropriate response to someone talking to them is to not punch them in the face, and I’ll be interested in what you have to say. Otherwise, what you say is utterly irrelevant. I’m not sure what the age of criminal responsibility is in Florida, but I’ll guarantee it’s well under 17.
That’s disingenuous. The situation wasn’t the equivalent of someone chatting you up at a bus stop now, was it?
Anyway, it’s ironic that Zimmerman had his own lack of control moment in 2005 when he cursed, pushed, and struggled with a police officer. How old was he then? Yes, I know the charges were dropped, but he never denied doing it, and in fact, went on to claim that he was justified because the officer “never identified himself”. Too bad he didn’t learn anything from that experience and identify himself to Trayvon when he decided to play policeman seven years later, huh?
This started because someone posted that “I’m begging you” is standard English and I pointed out that you can’t assume that without proof based on What Trayvon posted on twitter account .
I’ve also pointed out that not being familiar with standard English is a common reason reason for dropping out of school and the 2 out of 3 black males in Miami-Dade county drop out of school.
The reason I won’t drop it is because Jack Batty said in post #1896
What he said is way over the line.
The ability, or not, of Trayvon being capable of uttering “I beg you” is too important to keep as a side issue in this multifaceted thread. Perhaps those interested could start a new thread devoted entirely to that meaty subject.
Please do this. I beg you. Or should that be: I be beggin’ yo ass, Homes!
I would like to point out that 10s of millions of people have listened to this audio including many people who were actually there and Trayvon’s mother and several audio experts and no one heard Trayvon say “I’m begging you” and Alan R. Reich says that and a bunch of people immediately say that this is proof that Zimmerman committed murder.
I’m willing to drop it and let a court decide about Alan R. Reich, if other people agree.
Neither. This discrepancy was noted by Gilbreath at the bond hearing in April, and sources close to the investigation have leaked that the bit about the truck being circled was something that he stuck to over the course of several interviews.
Well aware of that - cognitive psychology has been a bit of a hobby-horse of mine for a couple of decades, and mainstay of my reading. (Mostly populist but occasionally academic.)
What you have to understand is that in spite of the notorious malleability of memory, eyewitness accounts remain very valuable evidence. We acknowledge that memories can be misleading, but that doesn’t mean that we just discount eyewitness accounts out-of-hand (either in total, or selectively.) You weight these accounts according to how well they fit the other facts in evidence.
Obviously, the most important account is Zimmerman’s own. Will it hold up to scrutiny? For my part, (with the limited information we have now) I have serious doubts. First, because it appears that his statements to investigators about what was happening while he was on the phone to police dispatch appear to be falsified by the actual recording in a striking way - immediately after the fact, and in a way which seems to indicate a deliberate, self-serving fiction.
I also have a hard time imagining someone “sucker punching” another person while they have an active call and mitts full of convenience store items - this does not ring true at all. If a scuffle gets started, and it turns out that one of the participants had an open call in their ear, I have some doubt that they were spoiling for a fight. So Zimmerman’s account (if it substantially resembles the various bits we’ve heard second-hand) doesn’t seem plausible to me with regard to how the scuffle started either.
I think it’s things like this that the prosecution will narrow in on. It looks like crude embroidery - the sort of thing a guy who seriously fucked up while acting in the mistaken belief that he was protecting his neighborhood by holding a serial housebreaker in place so the police could get a good look at him might offer up to cover his ass.
I think you might consider Zimmerman’s state of mind when you imagine the various ways that this might have unfolded. Four minutes earlier, he said “These assholes, they always get away.” Considering that he has previously demonstrated poor impulse control, (and that he was prescribed medication which sometimes exacerbates this,) do you suppose it’s possible that he may have gone beyond mere conversation in aid of keeping Martin on the spot?
I think it’s possible. I think it’s possible he may have attempted to restrain Martin, and Martin may have been justified in hitting him, but my opinion is it’s unlikely, for whatever that’s worth.
What I have a real problem with is the idea that Zimmerman acted in a way that made it acceptable for Martin to jump on him and bash his head on the floor, and also likely that he did.
To clarify, if Zimmerman grabbed Martin, it would have been assault, and Martin would be justified in punching him in self defence - but not in continuing to attack him in a way that could cause serious injury.
If Zimmerman threatened Martin with the gun, Martin would be justified in using any level of force to defend himself, but I find it implausible that he would punch Zimmerman in that situation.
In short, I think it’s unlikely that Zimmerman acted in a fashion that would mean he was not entitled to defend himself from Martin’s attack, if that attack happened the way Zimmerman claimed - that is, a potentially lethal attack.
As has been alluded to before, it is doubtful that you will find anyone here who gives any credence to Mr. Reich’s exercise in projection. It will certainly not be offered up in court.
What if Zimmerman attempted to restrain Martin AND his gun was shown–either accidently or purposefully? It would explain why Martin would throw the first punch and then continue to fight. Panic does not usually align with reason.
Just like adrenaline and guns do not often align with reason.
But we’re going in circles here.
**
Last time**: Impulse control is governed by the the prefrontal cortex which is the very last part of the brain to mature. On average, a 17 year old is likely to have poor impulse control. This should not be news nor should it be controversial. My god. Look at the news to see stupid shit teenagers do. It doesn’t surprise me that age of criminal responsibility in Florida is “well under 17”; the “law” and the scientific reality of a given situation are often divorced from one another.
- Honesty
Lol. Why not?
Zimmerman supposedly defended himself by inflicting serious injury to Martin. So serious, in fact, that he died. Pretty goddamn serious, wouldn’t you say?
Even when you acknowledge Martin may have been acting in self defense, you hold him to a much higher standard than you hold Zimmerman. And you seem completely oblivious to this double standard.
I am realizing that most people in this thread don’t realize that Standard English actually has a specific technical meaning and many people in this thread just treat it as a synonym for English. I’m talking about not knowing Standard English well enough perform school work and is actually one of the leading causes of school drop outs.
I am familiar enough with ESL programs that I automatically assume treat Standard English as a technical term. It is quite possible that someone is fluent in some English dialect and not know enough Standard English to perform in school.
And we go back to the beginning again…
Looking at the chain of events in their entirety, do you think that “Zimmerman merely spoke”? or that he actions would be reasonably perceived as “merely speaking”?
It’s pretty much established by both sides that
a) Zimmerman and Martin looked at / eyeballed each other while Zimmerman was in his truck.
b) Zimmerman then got out of the truck and followed Martin into an alley that ran behind two rows of houses. (yeah, he was looking for a street sign, where there are none :rolleyes:)
With that as a background, isn’t any sort of contact going to fall closer to “menancing” or “confrontational” than “merely speaking”?
If someone deliberately got out of their vehicle and started following you into a back alley, at night would you be more inclinde to think they were wishing you some form of harm, or wanted to compliment you on your keen dress sense?
Given the lead-up, I would think that Zimmerman should be taking special care when speaking to Martin to be NOT confrontational, and as non-menancing as possible?
(of course, this is all out the window if you believe that Martin snuck up on Zimmerman and ambushed him to start a smack-down)
A 17 year old should know better than to punch someone based on something - anything - they say. Most 17 year olds don’t do this - most 12 year olds don’t! You are effectively saying that anyone below their mid-twenties should be able to do whatever they want because they cant control themselves, which is utter bullshit.
Because one is allowed to use lethal force only when in reasonable fear of death or serious injury - a state that it is reasonable to believe Zimmerman was in when he shot Martin.
If Zimmerman grabbed Martin, Martin punched him to the floor and bashed his head against the concrete, and Zimmerman shot him, Zimmerman is guilty of assault, nothing more.
There is no double standard, the standard that matters is Florida law.
Reich won’t be used, but the recording surely will - the prosecution will call on at least two experts, as per the witness list released.
Something to keep in mind: They had Zimmerman reenact everything at the scene, including the screaming, and they videotaped/recorded it. At the time, he couldn’t have known about the 911 recording, so that is another type of comparison they can use to see if his claims are consistent.
The prosecutor already alluded to an inconsistency related to his claims about having Martin’s hands over his mouth and nose just before the gunshot.
If Zimmerman committed assault by grabbing Martin, Martin could inflict serious injury to him under SYG. To argue otherwise is to argue that its unreasonable to believe serious injury is imminent if you’re grabbed by a complete stranger who has been tracking after you in the dark, for reasons unbeknownst to you. Why wouldn’t Martin have been able to make that claim any more than Zimmerman can now?
As a woman, I assure you that if a man ran aggressively after me on a dark street and then laid his hands on me in an attempt to restrain me, I would fear serious injury and would defend myself to the best of my ability. In the unlikely event that I had a gun, I would probably shoot the guy. How likely is it that I wouldnt be covered under SYG do you think? (To keep things simple, let’s pretend I’m white and so is the guy who grabbed me.)