Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread

[monstro]

We’re down to arguing strawmen now. No one said Zimmerman planned to do anything…except be an action hero.

Ya’ll are also underestimating his stupidity. This is a guy who thought he could get one over by talking in kindergarten-level code on a jailhouse phone with big warning signs posted everywhere. He’s also stupid enough to leave the safety of his vehicle to track someone he believed to be drugged and armed and–this is key–menacing towards him. You know, if someone had menacingly circled my car and then I suddenly had lost sight of him, the last thing I’d do is get out of that car to look for a street sign or any other thing. Not if I had any common sense. No, I’d either sit tight and stay in contact with the dispatcher, or I’d drive to a nearby landmark that I could direct the police to. The last thing I’d do would be to get out of my car, so that I could put myself in danger from the big scary punk who I know has seen me.

Zimmerman didn’t show wisdom that night with his actions. He has not shown great wisdom in anything he has done, as far as we know. This does not make him a murderer, of course. It’s just that anything is possible–nothing can be ruled out. Including incredibly stupid things, like killing a boy with potential eye witnesses just a few feet away.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@you_with_the_face

Where your spin falls apart is the fact the very little of his statement matches up with the evidence. Hence his arrest.

You appear to have lost track of your own point. You were talking about what O’Mara meant. O’Mara obviously doesn’t agree with you that very little of his statement matches the evidence.

@you_with_the_face

It is quite amusing, though. Early on in this saga, folks were predicting that Zimmerman would not be arrested because he was too clean. When he not only was arrested but charged with murder, then the prediction became that the judge would reject the affidavit. When that didnt happened, the prediction became that Zimmerman is gonna walk because under the SYG he can’t be touched.

When are y’all gonna stop with these kinds of predictions? If I were you, I wouldnt even assume SYG is in play.

I don’t recall these predictions, and suspect that you’ve invented them.

[JoelUpchurch]

Mark O’Mara filed a motion for a new bond hearing for Zimmerman.

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Motion%20to%20Set%20Reasonable%20Bond.pdf

Paragraph 7 is interesting. There will be a hearing Friday.

[rat_avatar]

@JoelUpchurch

Mark O’Mara filed a motion for a new bond hearing for Zimmerman.

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Motion%20to%20Set%20Reasonable%20Bond.pdf

Paragraph 7 is interesting. There will be a hearing Friday.

Paragraph 7 is pretty standard, I wonder if the judge will mention the hidden Passports as a concern? I expect him to be released but it is odd that wasn’t mentioned in the counsels statement.

I wonder if he is not released if the defense will quickly file for a SYG hearing, I would imagine jail is getting a little tiresome for Zimmerman.

[JoelUpchurch]

@rat_avatar

Paragraph 7 is pretty standard, I wonder if the judge will mention the hidden Passports as a concern? I expect him to be released but it is odd that wasn’t mentioned in the counsels statement.

I wonder if he is not released if the defense will quickly file for a SYG hearing, I would imagine jail is getting a little tiresome for Zimmerman.

I don’t think it will be that quick, unless O’Mara decides that the SYG hearing is a slam dunk. O’Mara will have to finish his investigation and then the prosecution has to have time for discovery.

I’m looking forward to the hearing on Friday. I wonder if O’Mara will argue that there isn’t any evidence supporting the charge of 2nd degree murder and try to get it reduced to manslaughter. I listened to the first three interviews with Investigator Singleton and Serino on the 27th and 28th and watched the walk through on 28th and so far I have heard squat. I still have to listen to the Serino Interviews on the 29th.

http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/press-releases/30-george-zimmerman-s-statements

In any case, I hope the hearing will be interesting.

[newme]

Results of Z’s stress test have been released:

Among the questions Zimmerman answered: Did you confront the guy you shot? (No.) And were you afraid for your life when you shot the guy? (Yes.)
…

Video of one of the tests was released last week by Zimmerman’s attorneys. But documents showing the results were only made public on Tuesday. They show the person who performed the test determined Zimmerman “told substantially the complete truth” when he was questioned on Feb. 27, the day after the killing.

[newme]

Also a previously redacted statement made by Serino has been released:

“Investigative findings show that Zimmerman admitted to avoiding a confrontation with Martin while Zimmerman was observing Martin from his vehicle, because, as he told investigators, was afraid of Martin,” the capias request reads. “Later in the encounter, Zimmerman exited his vehicle, in spite of his earlier admission to investigators that he was afraid of Martin, and followed Martin in an effort to maintain surveillance of him while Zimmerman awaited the arrival of law enforcement officers. His actions are inconsistent with those of a person who has stated he was in fear of another subject.”

[Magiver]

@monstro

He’s also stupid enough to leave the safety of his vehicle to track someone he believed to be drugged and armed and–this is key–menacing towards him. You know, if someone had menacingly circled my car and then I suddenly had lost sight of him, the last thing I’d do is get out of that car to look for a street sign or any other thing. Not if I had any common sense. No, I’d either sit tight and stay in contact with the dispatcher, or I’d drive to a nearby landmark that I could direct the police to. The last thing I’d do would be to get out of my car, so that I could put myself in danger from the big scary punk who I know has seen me.

There is no indication that Zimmerman had anything to fear from martin. He said he looked messed up, not dangerous. There is no indication that Zimmerman attempted to make contact with Martin so it doesn’t really matter if he’s walking around or sitting in his car.

@monstro

Zimmerman didn’t show wisdom that night with his actions. He has not shown great wisdom in anything he has done, as far as we know. This does not make him a murderer, of course. It’s just that anything is possible–nothing can be ruled out. Including incredibly stupid things, like killing a boy with potential eye witnesses just a few feet away.

All that he did that we know of at this time is try to keep a suspected burglar in sight. Martin’s behavior on the other hand was appalling. Any wisdom he might have had was on suspension.

And I don’t understand why defending yourself in front of witnesses is incredibly stupid. Letting someone beat you dead, with or without witnesses, would be stupid.

[PatriotX]

@Magiver

There is no indication that Zimmerman had anything to fear from martin. He said he looked messed up, not dangerous.

It seems clear now that the re-enactment video Z thought that M may have had a gun.
Not only did Z mention the hand in the waistband thing to the dispatcher, iirc, he mentions it twice in a row during the re-enactment to make sure the investigator knew that GZ thought M may have been armed.
Additionally, Iirc, during the bond hearing, GZ also pointed out that he did not know M was un-armed.

So, imho, it seems well established that GZ thought that M may have been armed.

So GZ is talking about someone who appears to be on drugs, up to no good and potentially armed walking the neighborhood after dark.

To me, imho, that seems to be indication that GZ had something to fear from M.
imho.

@Magiver

There is no indication that Zimmerman attempted to make contact with Martin so it doesn’t really matter if he’s walking around or sitting in his car.

Other than DeeDee’s report and GZ staying out of his vehicle. I’d be willing to call both of those “indications”.

@Magiver

All that he did that we know of at this time is try to keep a suspected burglar in sight.

Not according to Z though. His story varies on that count.
We see it that way because we have listened to Z’s call to the Non-Emergency Number (NEN).
But in Z’s retelling, Z had already lost sight of M and Z was trying to get an address from a street where Z was not because the dispatcher “needed” an address.

@Magiver

Martin’s behavior on the other hand was appalling. Any wisdom he might have had was on suspension.

I think sense leaves the body during the teenage years. The hormones threaten it and make it take administrative leave. Iirc, according to Twain, it returns to us at about age 28.

@Magiver

And I don’t understand why defending yourself in front of witnesses is incredibly stupid. Letting someone beat you dead, with or without witnesses, would be stupid.

I agree. It seems very weird that there’re no further indications of GZ defending himself outside of shooting TM dead.
I am not sure what to make of that.
I am not GZ, but to understand it, I try to put myself in his situation.

There’s someone on top of me, striking me, slamming my head into the pavement, suffocating me, etc. I am having trouble finding my hands doing something other than defending myself when I imagine that situation.

I see myself at least grabbing the arms which are trying to slam my head into the ground. The arms have to be relatively still at the point where they’re touching my head. His hand would be on my curly locks. Not sure where M grabbed hold of Z’s head, but the point is till the same-- the hands were locatable and were relatively still long enough to be grabbed.

I see myself biting into a hand on my mouth which was suffocating me.

I see myself grabbing at the hands which are trying to cover up my mouth and nose.
I see me clutching at the face of the person who is quietly threatening me.

etc.

Anyway, it seem conspicuous to me that M’s body doesn’t show more signs of struggle given the struggle that has been reported.

[Poochey]

@PatriotX

It seems clear now that the re-enactment video Z thought that M may have had a gun.
Not only did Z mention the hand in the waistband thing to the dispatcher, iirc, he mentions it twice in a row during the re-enactment to make sure the investigator knew that GZ thought M may have been armed.
Additionally, Iirc, during the bond hearing, GZ also pointed out that he did not know M was un-armed.

So, imho, it seems well established that GZ thought that M may have been armed.

So GZ is talking about someone who appears to be on drugs, up to no good and potentially armed walking the neighborhood after dark.

To me, imho, that seems to be indication that GZ had something to fear from M.
imho.

Other than DeeDee’s report and GZ staying out of his vehicle. I’d be willing to call both of those “indications”.

Not according to Z though. His story varies on that count.
We see it that way because we have listened to Z’s call to the Non-Emergency Number (NEN).
But in Z’s retelling, Z had already lost sight of M and Z was trying to get an address from a street where Z was not because the dispatcher “needed” an address.

I think sense leaves the body during the teenage years. The hormones threaten it and make it take administrative leave. Iirc, according to Twain, it returns to us at about age 28.

I agree. It seems very weird that there’re no further indications of GZ defending himself outside of shooting TM dead.
I am not sure what to make of that.
I am not GZ, but to understand it, I try to put myself in his situation.

There’s someone on top of me, striking me, slamming my head into the pavement, suffocating me, etc. I am having trouble finding my hands doing something other than defending myself when I imagine that situation.

I see myself at least grabbing the arms which are trying to slam my head into the ground. The arms have to be relatively still at the point where they’re touching my head. His hand would be on my curly locks. Not sure where M grabbed hold of Z’s head, but the point is till the same-- the hands were locatable and were relatively still long enough to be grabbed.

I see myself biting into a hand on my mouth which was suffocating me.

I see myself grabbing at the hands which are trying to cover up my mouth and nose.
I see me clutching at the face of the person who is quietly threatening me.

etc.

Anyway, it seem conspicuous to me that M’s body doesn’t show more signs of struggle given the struggle that has been reported.

Zimmerman had to have been stunned by a blow to the nose, and you can’t fight back effectively on your back. No leverage. Didn’t witness number 6 see Trayvon hit Zimmerman in the stomach a half dozen times, and tell the combatants to stop it and Trayvon didn’t (there should have been patio lights coming on also), even though he should have known there were now witnesses, though he also should have known there were potential witnesses before the event?

[Airbeck]

@Poochey

Zimmerman had to have been stunned by a blow to the nose, and you can’t fight back effectively on your back. No leverage. Didn’t witness number 6 see Trayvon hit Zimmerman in the stomach a half dozen times, and tell the combatants to stop it and Trayvon didn’t (there should have been patio lights coming on also), even though he should have known there were now witnesses, though he also should have known there were potential witnesses before the event?

You don’t need leverage to scratch or bite someone. If he did anything else to try to defend himself besides just shooting Martin there would be some evidence of defensive wounds on him and Martin. How do you square this sustained savage attack from Martin that you guys keep describing as established fact with the fact that all he had was one small scratch below one knuckle on one hand. How does that show evidence of a lengthy brutal beatdown the way you guys are asserting it? There is evidence of one punch to the face. That’s it. The two small cuts on the back of his head could have been him falling on the ground and getting scratched by a twig or small stones in the grass. The evidence does not prove as much as you guys are assigning to it. It just doesn’t, no matter how much you wish it to be.

[you_with_the_face]

What’s most telling is the paucity of Zimmerman’s DNA on Martin. Most of the forensic evidence trends against his credibility.

According to discovery:

Martin’s hands were pristine, even though supposedly they’d be in intimate contact with a bleeding nose and an open mouth. None of Z’s DNA were uncovered under his fingernails. Which makes you wonder: how did he manage to get a grip on Z’s head? Without any hair to grab, it strains credibility to think he’d been able to pull off this feat without digging in with his nails.

Despite Z’s claim that Martin was sitting/lying on top of him, none of Zimmerman’s blood was found on his outer clothes. Only one unadulterated drop of Z’s blood was found on Martin, but it was on the shirt under his hoodie.

Martin was shot from front to back, according the medical examiner/coroner. This means the bullet did not enter his body at an angle consistent with Martin leaning over Z in a struggle. In the reenactment, Z demonstrates that he extended his arm in front of him when he shot the kid. Nevermind the question of how he’d even be able to extend his arm given the close distance between him and Martin’s chest (supposedly). He needs to explain how a front-to-back trajectory fits in with the idea that Martin was sitting on top of him.

[Poochey]

@Airbeck

You don’t need leverage to scratch or bite someone. If he did anything else to try to defend himself besides just shooting Martin there would be some evidence of defensive wounds on him and Martin. How do you square this sustained savage attack from Martin that you guys keep describing as established fact with the fact that all he had was one small scratch below one knuckle on one hand. How does that show evidence of a lengthy brutal beatdown the way you guys are asserting it? There is evidence of one punch to the face. That’s it. The two small cuts on the back of his head could have been him falling on the ground and getting scratched by a twig or small stones in the grass. The evidence does not prove as much as you guys are assigning to it. It just doesn’t, no matter how much you wish it to be.

Look at the reenactment video taken after the shooting. Zimmerman has a bandage on the bridge of the nose, a bruise on the cheek, facial puffiness, a swelling under the right eye, a larger swelling under the left eye. Allegedly, because I couldn’t see it, he had two black eyes, probably due to the broken nose, and I couldn’t see the alleged bruise near his mouth.

[JoelUpchurch]

@you_with_the_face

What’s most telling is the paucity of Zimmerman’s DNA on Martin. Most of the forensic evidence trends against his credibility.

It was raining.

[Terr]

One of the most compelling things in the evidence released:

In Zimmerman’s interrogation by Serino on Feb 29, Serino tells Zimmerman that he passed the lie detector test, then tells him that it is possible that the encounter was captured on video by someone. This is Zimmerman’s reply:
I prayed to God that someone would be [videotaping this] or the neighborhood had put up a video camera that I didn’t know about or something.
Tell me again that’s a reply of someone with something to hide.

[you_with_the_face]

@JoelUpchurch

It was raining.

It wasn’t raining so hard that DNA lodged under someone’s fingers would be completely obliterated, sorry. We aren’t talking about a torrential downpour. Zimmerman had been standing out there for several minutes wirhout an umbrella, but he didn’t appear wet at all when he was taken to the station.

Martin should have had Zimmerman’s blood on his hands. There was not even a speck found. Not even on his sleeves.

Please don’t tell me rain can wash away blood stains now. .

[you_with_the_face]

@Terr

One of the most compelling things in the evidence released:

In Zimmerman’s interrogation by Serino on Feb 29, Serino tells Zimmerman that he passed the lie detector test, then tells him that it is possible that the encounter was captured on video by someone. This is Zimmerman’s reply:
I prayed to God that someone would be [videotaping this] or the neighborhood had put up a video camera that I didn’t know about or something.
Tell me again that’s a reply of someone with something to hide.

Right, because we all know if Zimmerman was lying, he’d have to exclaim “Oh Lawd knows I hope no one videotaped what happened because then you’d have double extra proof that I just made the whole thing up!”

[Airbeck]

@Poochey

Look at the reenactment video taken after the shooting. Zimmerman has a bandage on the bridge of the nose, a bruise on the cheek, facial puffiness, a swelling under the right eye, a larger swelling under the left eye. Allegedly, because I couldn’t see it, he had two black eyes, probably due to the broken nose, and I couldn’t see the alleged bruise near his mouth.

Where in the reenactment video does it show the damage to Martin’s hands that would have happened if he was savagely beating Zimmerman for an extended time as you guys keep insisting was the case? Where is the physical evidence on Martin that he levied this brutal sustained attack? Hint: It isn’t there.

2 black eyes and a broken nose is evidence of one punch. The two small cuts on his head could have easily been caused by him falling back on the grass after being punched and scratching his head on a stick.

Again, where is the physical evidence of a vicious and savage continuous attack? I’ve seen this asserted many times in these threads as if it was an established fact. But it is certainly not. Zimmerman’s story in the reenactment is not physical evidence.

[Bricker]

@Airbeck

2 black eyes and a broken nose is evidence of one punch.

How does one punch deliver two black eyes?

[Airbeck]

@Bricker

How does one punch deliver two black eyes?

The broken nose causes both black eyes. Ever seen anyone after a broken nose. Both eyes being blackened is perfectly normal and expected.