In other words, you have no evidence for your scenario, it just seems to make sense to you.
If Martin is towering over him, and continuing to spray him, SYG doesn’t come into play. Zimmerman could shoot him under normal self defence rules.
ETA That is, if the spraying gives rise to reasonable fear of serious injury or death. If not, it’s not a valid analogy.
Are you really saying that Martin is at fault for his death for not calling 911?
His girlfriend reports that Martin himself didn’t think the situation leading up to the altercation warranted running–that it was merely creepy behavior.
Three things could have made him not want to call the police, beyond gender and racial/cultural stuff: 1) He’s in a strange neighborhood. How is he going to direct the police to his location? He’s also a kid. Maybe he doesn’t know that you can actually call 911 to report suspicious people…that 911 isn’t simply for reporting crimes. I know for a fact that I wouldn’t have known this at 17. 2) He’s almost home. He figures the creepy dude won’t be so brazen as to follow him to his house. 3) He’s on the phone with his girl. She’s tempering his fears and probably making him feel braver than he is. That’s why he tells her he’s going to “walk fast” instead of running.
When he bumps into Zimmerman (assuming this is what happened), he’s caught off-guard. When you panic, your mind is reduced to single-track thinking. I think it’s a fair assumption to make that both guys panicked. Martin’s mode: “Keep scary dude off me!” Zimmerman’s mode: “Kill scary dude before he can kill me!”
Stoid’s point, which I totally agree with, is that neither one of these guys would have been “scary” if Zimmerman had not gotten out of his car. Blaming Martin for not calling 911 is like blaming a rape victim for not screaming loud enough. It’s a weak attempt to say that both parties are to blame for creating the situation, when really we only have evidence that one party went out of his way to do something unwise (i.e., approaching a guy he had already flagged as scary, who he claims didn’t know was armed).
If Zimmerman claims he didn’t approach Martin, I would want to know how in the hell he got from his truck all the way over to the yard. The only thing that makes sense is that Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin and went snooping around in the darkness for him, and in doing so their eyes “bumped” into each other. They were close enough, if we are to believe the earwitness, for Zimmerman’s voice to have been picked up by the phone. I would find that situation simply terrifying, if I had been Martin. 911 would have been the last thing from my mind.
Just about any fighting move can illicit reasonable fear of serious injury or death. I’m having a hard time imagining what Martin could have done in a scuffle with Zimmerman that Zimmerman could not have claimed as warranting “reasonable fear of serious injury”. Punching Zimmerman in the face as opposed to slamming his head would have been able to illicit the same fear. Any person ever finding themselves in the losing side of a fight could play this card.
Not only was the fight stacked against Martin, but it appears the law is stacked against him too. I really hope the prosecution has something golden they’re sitting on that hasn’t been leaked yet, because I don’t know how they’ll be able to disprove something that’s so hard to disprove (the state of mind of an individual who has every reason in the world to fabricate and exaggerate the truth).
Can we go back to the street sign claim? How many posters in here really believe that this is why Zimmerman go out of his car? And how do you square this belief with the location of where the shooting occurred?
This ridiculous assertion bears all the hallmarks of a story that tries too hard to hide any indication that Zimmerman acted improperly. He wasnt trying to follow Martin, no way, no sir. He was looking for a street sign. And he didn’t reach for his gun. Hell no, it was his phone! And that wasn’t Martin screaming for help, it was Zimmerman!
Notice how every critical element of the story all seem to be written in Zimmmans favor? He admits to nothing that could make him look bad, even though evidence suggests at a minimum that he did continue his pursuit of Martin.
If (please note the if) Martin, as is claimed, started the fight, then no, nothing was stacked against him. He should not have started it. This also answers the question in your previous post - if he started the fight, he is responsible for his own death.
The law, by the way, should always be stacked in favour of the accused. That’s not a bug, it’s a feature. I will point out, though, that they do not have to prove what Zimmerman’s state of mind was, they have to prove that a reasonable person in that situation would not fear death or great bodily harm.
As for the various accusations of victim blaming - Zimmerman claims he was the victim of an assault, but that hasn’t stopped you lot saying he should never have followed Martin (which is, as has been mentioned many times before, perfectly legitimate behaviour), and that it’s therefore his fault.
He followed Martin. That is not in doubt, that is not illegal, and frankly it’s barely relevant. He had every right to follow him, and question him. What he did not have the right to do is to threaten or restrain Martin, or even to expect answers to his questions. There’s no evidence that he did any of those things, though.
It’s entirely possible that every element of the story points in Zimmerman’s favour because he did nothing wrong.
What I find entertaining is how information is presented with skewed perspective to assist in convincing of ones position.
There are several things mentioned that have had 2 stories. Looks like people have latched on the side that matches their personal perception (I may even be guilty of this admittedly)
Perceptions based on info (whether that info is accurate)
A
- Zim was Ricky Rescue with a trigger finger
- Trayvon was just a sweet boy
B
- Zim was a responsible neighbor watcher
- Trayvon was a wannabe thug
These tidbits of info that has been in the news are the basis of peoples claims.
The funny thing is, in each sampling, they are good vs evil scenarios. What I havent seen is my Speculation
C
- Zim was Ricky Rescue with a trigger finger
- Trayvon was a wannabe thug
JMHO, but this is what I believe was the scenario. These confronting aggressive personalities caused the powder keg to go boom
You’re puzzled that a young African American male would hesitate to call the police? You think it’s remarkable that he would hesitate to call authorities and accuse a light skinned person of… something? Seriously?
Also, you say that Marin didn’t go home (it was actually a relative’s house, but that’s neither here nor there). I was under the impression that he was trying to head “home” the whole time. His body was found near the house he was staying at.
Ive seen Zimmerman, light skinned and hispanic looking are too very different things.
Zimmerman does not look Caucasian. Now, Martin may have thought it useless to call the cops regarding a black vs hispanic issue, but quit with the light skinned crap.
Zimmerman would not have the right to employ deadly force then. Mace is not life-threatening.
Do you believe the only reason he was out of his car was to check to see what street he was on? Yes or no.
If he denies following Martin, what can we conclude about the rest of his story?
I suspect it’s this point-of-weirdness–assuming his story is that he got out of the truck only to check a street sign–that explains why the prosecutor felt there was enough reason to bring charges. Everything else is just us chewing the fat and bllshitting, but I’ve said from the very beginning that the guy has to explain how the fight could start from his truck and end up where it did. From what we know, this could not have happened absent either some long and drawn out “They Live” type of street battle or Zimmerman following Martin for some distance.
But this is irrelevant because Zimmerman is insisting that he didn’t follow him.
He says on the 911 all that he followed him. I believe he claims he didn’t approach Martin.
People who have died after being pepper-sprayed may disagree with you.
There’s no question that George Zimmerman did a lot wrong. Whether what he did was illegal is a different question.
His claim–according to his surrogates–is that he wasn’t following Trayvon when he returned to his truck.
I haven’t read his statement, so I don’t know if this is his official claim. But according to his father, he had stopped following Martin before the fighting had begun.
Do you believe that if Zimmerman’s story is true, he should currently be a free man, and should face absolutely no consequences for his actions? Yes or no?
The reason I ask is that I know you don’t believe this, and this is why your participation in this thread is on giant game of Gotcha, and arguing with you is pointless, as you want Zimmerman punished no matter what.
Your question, as far as I can tell, is irrelevant to anything, so I’m not going to answer it.
The State investigator, yesterday, during the bail hearing, under oath, said that there is no evidence to disprove Zimmerman’s contention he was walking back to his vehicle when confronted by Martin.