First of all - that is such a ridiculous statement I don’t even know where to begin.
Second of all: pls provide a cite suggesting that the original recommendation was third-degree manslaughter.
In order to convict a person of manslaughter, the state must provre that the person who committed thee killing had adequate provocation, acted in the heat of passion, and lacked the opportunity to relieve that passion. There has to be a connection between the provocation, the heat of passion, and the circumstances causing the killing.
Second degree murder is an intentional killing not planned, nor committed in a reasonable heat of passion. It is a killing caused by an obvious lack of concern for human life.
An example of second degree murde would be someone caught his wife in bed with another man, ran into the person his wife had cheated on, fired a gun at him, missed, and struck someone else.
This picturewas taken the night of the shooting.
Does this look like a face that was punched repeatedly in the face?
Thisis a full body shot of Zimmerman, also the night of the shooting.
Broken noses tend to bleed. A lot. Odd that not a single speck of blood, either from a ‘broken nose’, or from Martin’s gaping gunshot wound, ended up on GZ’s shirt or jacket.
There’s injuries to the nose, just right of centre on the forehead, on the left side of the hairline, and marks on the left cheek that may or may not be an injury. I can’t see those being caused by less than two blows to the face.
Broken noses tend to bleed a lot, but don’t always. The medical examination says that his nose was broken, so there’s no real doubt that it was.
I’m not sure why you think Martin’s blood would be on Zimmerman.
Yes it does. You should have watched Friday’s hearing about how long the EMTs spent cleaning Zimmerman up before he went to the police station. They said 45% of his head was covered in blood.
You seem to have a high opinion of Martin’s fighting skills. He was also distracted once Zimmerman started screaming trying to shut him up.
So how come none of it got on Martin’s hands, with all the beating and the smothering?
And yet not a single drop of blood on his jacket or shirt. Nothing on his jeans. Nothing on his shoes.
Interesting.
No blood on Martin either, IIRC.
Interesting.
What are you doubting here? We know that Zimmerman had his nose broken, and we know he shot Martin. What is even in doubt here?
I’m doubting GZ’s version of events of how he came across his wounds and how Martin ended up dead.
I am curious now.
- Do you doubt Martin hit Zimmerman?
- Do you doubt Martin was straddling Zimmerman on the ground?
- Do you doubt that there was a struggle for 40 seconds?
- Do you doubt Zimmerman shot Martin point blank range after that 40 second struggle?
(and, by the way, forensics do show Martin’s blood on Zimmerman. Just not a lot - because the documents also show that most of Martin’s blood pooled in his body, and because he was wearing layers of clothes)
As I put it to monstro (and he studiously ignored it, twice): at the time that you’re lying knocked down on the ground, nose broken, blood on your face, being straddled by someone who is pinning you down - it is reasonable to fear for your life.
So you don’t have to believe Zimmerman’s version of events. You just have to believe that there was a point where Zimmerman was lying knocked down on the ground, nose broken, blood on his face, being straddled by someone who is pinning him down.
If you think that is true, then Zimmerman should walk.
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Do you doubt Martin hit Zimmerman?
I think it’s possible that at some point Martin may have hit GZ (what shape were Martin’s hands/knuckles in? Any sign of repeated punches to GZ’s head?) -
Do you doubt Martin was straddling Zimmerman on the ground?
What evidence do we have that Martin was straddling Zimmerman? If he was straddling him, were GZ’s arms free? If so…why wasn’t GZ struggling back? He didn’t punch back, didn’t try to block his arms? George makes zero mention of doing so; only mentions trying to ‘squirm a bit’ so his head is off the cement. If Martin was straddling GZ and sitting on his arms…then how does GZ ‘pin’ Martin’s arm and simultaneously draw his gun with the same arm? -
Do you doubt that there was a struggle for 40 seconds?
Define ‘struggle’. -
Do you doubt Zimmerman shot Martin point blank range after that 40 second struggle?
I don’t doubt that he shot Martin.
We don’t know that. The ME didn’t take any samples from Martin’s Hand’s and it was raining on Martin’s body before they hauled it off
It seems to be a lot easier to spin theories when you ignore the facts. Everything you said is wrong except the shoes. I don’t think they tested the shoes.
Good luck with your fantasy. If you had listened to the hearing Friday, even the Prosecution concedes that Martin hit Zimmerman. Their theory is that Martin was justified because Zimmerman was stalking him.
“It’s possible”? If he didn’t - can you explain how Zimmerman got a broken nose?
Eyewitness account.
Sounds of a fight and screaming on the police tape.
Point blank, after the 40 second struggle.
So - taking all these facts into account - do you believe that there was a point where Zimmerman was lying knocked down on the ground, nose broken, blood on his face, being straddled by someone who is pinning him down? And if you do, do you think it is reasonable for someone in such a situation to fear for his life?
Nope, not as long as you think Zimmerman started it, which I do. Self-defense requires you not to be the instigator.
And as for monstro, she didn’t ignore your question. She treated it like what it was–a rhetorical technique to make it appear that your opponent agrees with you. As long as you keep framing it like that, I doubt any of us are stupid enough to answer you.
At the second bond hearing, the EMT testified that Zimmerman had blood covering 45% of his face before he was cleaned up. .
Not according to the Florida law that has been quoted here numerous times.
I think the two simplest explanations for those inconsistencies are that they were either wrestling for control of the gun, or it wasn’t that TM had him pinned, it was that GZ was holding on to him and not letting him get up. Or a combination of the two.
For me, the scenario that fits all the evidence and makes the most sense from both subjects’ state of mind is:
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GZ approached TM, and after a short dialog, TM tried to walk away to continue his phone conversation in peace.
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GZ, determined not to let this “asshole” get away, grabbed TM and attempted to hold him there and wait for the police, imagining all the praise and glory he would get for catching himself a “perp” that had been invading his neighborhood.
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TM, having his flight-response impeded, switched to the fight-response and swung around and belted GZ in the nose, causing him to fall and take TM down with him, since he was still holding on to his “perp” prize
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Once on the ground, GZ continued to maintain his grasp on TM (probably switching to a bear hug, including wrapping around with his legs) in an effort not only to detain him, but as a defensive move to avoid another punch.
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At this point, TM found himself on top of a crazy dude who would not let him go, and the most instinctual thing for him to do is to repeatedly raise up and drop his body in order to try to slam and shake loose GZ’s grasp on him, which made it difficult for him to do much else.
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Remember, in GZ’s mind this whole time, TM is a trespassing, dangerous criminal who had just punched him in order to “escape justice” and in his irrational mind he was still the “good guy/neighborhood hero” so he viewed all TM’s actions through that lens, which made him see all TM’s defensive actions as offensive. In this irrational state of mind, he could very well have started to fear for his life, and continued to maintain his hold on TM for fear of what could happen if he let go, even though TM almost surely would have done nothing but flee if he had just let him go.
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As TM continued to try to struggle free, and GZ had his arms and legs wrapped around him, TM probably raised up in another attempt to slam GZ loose of him, and this allowed GZ to let go with one arm and reach for his gun, which would have been inaccessible if he was really pinned on the ground with TM on top of him. So, the ability for GZ to reach his gun is itself a strong indication that he WAS holding on to TM, and that TM was attempting to either get up, or else raise up and slam GZ loose.
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Once the gun is out, that obviously raises the stakes, and GZ’s fear would have actually increased because of it, since in such close combat the “dangerous criminal” could have gotten hold of it and used it against him.
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At this point, all GZ has to do is finally let go with his other arm and legs, TM would have been starting to get up, creating a slight separation, and GZ, still in completely irrational fear of what could happen if this “dangerous criminal” got his gun, fired one round straight into TM’s heart.
The above scenario fits not only all the evidence, but the most likely states of mind of both the subjects and the actions they would have taken as a result. In contrast, the scenarios put forward by GZ and his defenders not only ignore many pieces of evidence, but rely on absolutely comical motivations and states of mind that, if it were a movie or comic-book, would make it bad fiction. As a representation of reality, it makes it that much more absurd.
But, no doubt, some will still say “Ah hah! See? GZ WAS in fear for his life!” :rolleyes:But if that fear is completely irrational while approaching delusional, and was only due to his own unreasonable actions in the first place, how can that possibly make it a justifiable homicide? If you think it does, that means anyone can go kill anybody for any reason, not only including the voices in their head, but also because of the kind of prejudices and paranoia that lead them to profile and assault innocent teenagers.
Your scenario sounds great. You should present it to the prosecution ASAP. Just tweak it a little bit to agree with John and DeeDee statements and the fact that TM’s fingerprints aren’t on the gun and you should be fine.
Don’t wait. Bernie “bald guys bleed more” de la Rionda needs all the help he can get.