There’re lots of stories that Zimmerman could tell. Doesn’t make them true. And everything else that we know makes the story we’ve heard about what supposedly happened completely unbelievable.
This will depend if Zimmerman’s actions meet a legal standard for provocation. Following someone and talking to them do not.
I didn’t ask you if it was possible. I asked do you believe it.
I’m starting to suspect why Corey pressed charged against Zimmerman. We’ve been speculating about EMT records and forensics, but it’s probably much simpler than this.
This is purely speculation, but I think Zimmerman lied about ever following Martin. The lie would be present in his statement, and the contradictory evidence would be found in the recording with the 911 dispatcher.
When he was interviewed after the shooting, I’m assuming the cops would not have had access to the 911 recording, and Zimmerman could have been too stupid to realize the whole thing had been recorded (or maybe too arrogant to think it would matter). So if he told them he reported Martin as suspicious but stayed in his truck the whole time and didn’t give chase, they would have not known that was a lie. Later though, when they eventually listened to the tapes, the PD should have caught the lie.
Does anyone remember in the early days, Chief Lee making statements to the effect that it was not illegal for Zimmerman to follow Martin even though 911 told him not to (I can’t find the article I read that in…help someone?). I now question why he said this, when Zimmerman maintained from the start that he didn’t follow Martin after the 911 call ended. It suggests Lee himself didn’t believe Zimmerman ceased his pursuit.
And that bone I had to pick about the State Attorney’s remarks about probable cause and how the cops had the power all along to make an arrest…well, it makes sense they would say this if Zimmermans statement contradicts the evidence on that 911 tape. The prosecutor consulted on the night of the shooting may not have been aware of the evidence on the 911 tape, so her advice might have been prudent given what was known at that point. But after the 911 tape was available, failure to respond to that would have fallen on the cops.
In sum, if the prosecution can show that an important element in Zimmermans statement is contradicted by another piece of evidence, the rest of his story as well as his credibility is suspect. I believe if there is any obvious contradiction, it most likely concerns the issue of Zimmerman following Martin. The “checking the street sign” excuse suggests not only a lie, but a big silly lie.
Again, this is all speculation.
The prosecution has to convince the jury, beyond a reasonable doubt, in spite of witnesses saying it happened, that Martin was not sitting on top of Zimmerman and beating him up. Unless they have some dynamite evidence that we don’t know about (and the bond hearing indicates that they don’t), they are heading for a big fail.
Why do you keep saying Zimmerman wasn’t following Martin? You made a big deal in the other thread about the fact that he was, despite being “instructed”, as you put it, not to.
I understand that. But “Hispanic” is a social construct that we use and that has a (admittedly fuzzy) meaning in this culture. This incident is difficult to discuss without the concept.
In any case, I was responding to dngnb8 who brought up the “Hispanic” issue. I do think the he or she is off the mark on this. Zimmerman is much lighter than Martin and that in itself may have been enough to dissuade Martin from calling 911.
The post that started this was my response to JoelUpchurch’s contention that the fact the Martin didn’t call 911 is a basic problem for the claim that Martin was afraid. I was pointing out that this was nonsense and explaining why. Now that’s been derailed and obscured by dngnb8’s concerns over the semantics of “light”, “lighter”, “white”, “black”, and “Hispanic”.
I would dismiss it as a bit of overenthusiastic pedantry (something I’m certainly guilty of at times) if it wasn’t for the bit about “quit with the light skinned crap”.
In my opinion, based only on what we “know” now… Yes. There is no evidence that I know of yet that would allow a jury to find Zimmerman guilty. But of course there may be evidence that I don’t know – angle of the bullet, wounds on head, some thing – that gives the lie to Zimmerman’s story. It wouldn’t have to be a slam dunk, just something that a jury could credit that would show Zimerman materially lied about the events that kicked off the fight or the fight itself.
I don’t know what you mean by “responded defensively.”
Scenario A: Zimmerman approaches Martina, asks her what her business is, and she responds by kicking Zimmerman in the crotch, and then repeatedly pummeling his head against the concrete sidewalk.
Scenario B: Zimmerman approaches Martina, asks her what her business is, and she pepper sprays him and runs away; enraged, he follows her and shoots her.
Or craft your own and I’ll answer it. Be as specific as you can about who does what – like you were writing stage directions.
“Created the situation” is not the same, legally, as “was the aggressor.” A guy can walk down the street in East L.A. wearing a sign that says “WETBACKS GO HOME / PINCHE MEXICANO VETI” and he is obviously creating a situation. But if he is attacked by an angry Mexican in such a way that he fears for his life, he can defend himself with deadly force… even though he created the situation.
In my legal opinion, no. There needs to be some stronger fact. I assume there is, based on the charging decision, but after the bail hearing, I am less confident.
cosmosdan posted this link interesting bit of information from the hearing in the GD thread. Not sure if everyone saw this:
link: Trayvon Martin Case: Judge Grants George Zimmerman Bail | HuffPost Voices
I know its huffington post, so many will disregard everything in the article just for that, but this is simply a recounting of testimony.
Does that sound like a guy who did nothing wrong? Or who believes he did nothing wrong even?
But it’s good speculation. I agree with what you’ve said: there must be some important contradiction between Zimmerman’s statement and the evidence to sustain the charge. could be something simple, but obviously a lie, like following Martin.
Here’s a bizarre exchange at the bond hearing:
O’MARA: Have you ever had your nose fractured or broken.
GILBREATH: No.
O’MARA: You know that that was an injury that Mr. Zimmerman sustained, correct?
GILBREATH: I know that that is an injury that is reported to have sustained. I haven’t seen any medical records to indicate that.
**O’MARA: Have you asked him for them?
GILBREATH: Have I asked him for them? No.
O’MARA: Do you want a copy of them?
GILBREATH: Sure.
O’MARA: I’ll give them to the state. It’s a more appropriate way to do it. If you haven’t had them yet, I don’t want to cross you on them.
**
Seriously? The investigator has not yet, after weeks of investigating, gotten to request the medical records for Zimmerman’s injuries? Amazing.
I think it is possible he was looking for a house number. Looking for a street sign would be silly. I would have printed out a map with the house numbers marked, but that is just me. I love maps.
Trying to keep Martin in sight would be stupid, but hardly felonious. Lousy tactics also. He could have driven down to the south end of Twin Trees and got in front of Martin. If he thought Martin was trying to get away, then he should get around to the south entrance.
Trayvon Martin’s mom got on tv and asked for an apology the day charges were filed against Zimmerman.
Zimmerman offered a direct, private apology and was rebuffed. A private apology. No cameras, no media tricks and the Martin family wasn’t interested. So he offered the apology at his bond hearing.
The lawyers for Martin’s family have been manipulating opinions about this case for weeks. It’s disgusting. I know they are preparing the basis for a civil suit. It’s all about the lawyers cut of the settlement. Plus there’s an obvious political agenda here too.
But the shooting occurred behind the houses–the one place where you’re least likely to find house numbers.
So even if you can buy that he had to exit his car to find an address (which is a stretch by itself), you have to reconcile this action with the location of the shooting.
Why would they need to ask Zimmerman for medical records, since the police are the official fact finders of an investigation? They should have documented his injuries if he had evidence of such.
Assuming that Zimmerman’s lawyer isn’t lying in court (which is more or less certain), this pretty much proves that he had the injuries as described.
What does that mean, specifically? How would the police even diagnose a broken nose?
The trouble is that we assume that Martin was more scared of the police than of Zimmerman, then we might also conclude that Martin was a vigilante who decided to administer some street justice to Zimmerman.
I guess you weren’t involved in the previous thread. With the timeline we have, there is no way that Zimmerman overtakes Martin unless Martin stops.
Here is a diagram of what another poster (newme?) made.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=217828638806042443821.0004bc2f8dc88681cedc1
I misspoke. Martin was trying to get to Brandy Green’s home. She is his father’s girlfriend. Martin Died 70 yards from her house. Based on the cell phone times he should have arrived at Green’s house before Zimmerman came around the corner if he hadn’t stopped.
Everything I’ve read confirms Zimmerman’s story. Martin stopped, doubled back and got the jump on Zimmerman. Broke his nose, pounded the guys head into the sidewalk and then there was a struggle for control of the gun. It went off.
I’m curious to see if the cell phone times are accurate enough to use in court.
I see a short trial and acquittal. They don’t even need the Stand Your Ground law. This was old fashioned self defense.
It doesn’t matter what happened after he left police custody. If he wanted his injuries documented he should have insisted on treatment before he was questioned.
I’ll answer it: no. It is possible, but on balance of probabilities, I would have to say I don’t believe it.