Txs for proving my point:
The lawyers found out about the money and the transfers, which took place -before- the first bond hearing, and GZ had access to the funds at the time of the first bond hearing. The lawyers flipped out and put the money in a trust account.
Fat lot it did, he’s already out.
I suffer from a severe reading disorder? You realize you’re in great debates and not the Pit don’t you?
Zimmerman can’t give an address because he doesn’t know the name of the street. He gives the outer street name which he knows because he lives on it. The closest landmark is the Clubhouse. He repeatedly uses it as a reference point. He says the best address he can give is 111 Retreat View Circle. Not the ACTUAL address but the BEST address he can give. He tells them to drive past the clubhouse.
He doesn’t say “Yeah”, he says “yeah he’s coming towards me” and the question from the Dispatcher was “That’s the clubhouse. Do you know what the - he’s near the clubhouse right now”. NEAR, not AT. Prior to that they ask about the address given and Zimmerman says “that’s the clubhouse” as opposed to a simple yes which would confirm Martin’s location at the clubhouse. He’s referring back to the clubhouse as a point of reference which he continues to use after he says Martin is coming towards him. He tells them to drive PAST the clubhouse to his car.
To prove murder, you have to prove the elements I listed above. You don’t have to show any evidence about how reasonable the fear of great bodily injury was.
That’s the crux of the answer: in an ordinary murder case, you don’t need to put in any evidence about how reasonable the defendant’s fear was.
You are not drawing the right answer from what you’re quoting.
It’s true that proving a lack of self-defense is SIMILAR in terms of the burden to the prosecution in an ordinary murder. It’s not the same as saying the same facts will suffice in each case. The type of facts that can prove the requisite elements are similar. The actual facts that must gE proven are different.
In specific example thereof: in an ordinary murder case, the prosecution does not have to prove anything about the defendant’s fear, or about how reasonable it was. In this case, they will. That is a difference. Ok?
Yes, yes, and maybe. In Florida, the problem is that the circumstantial evidence must have a tight nexus to the fact being proved. Remember State v Dye’s admonition: “Florida law is well settled that the elements of an offense cannot be established by mere inference.”
Remember? What do you think that line means?
I didn’t realize Zimmerman was cut on the front of his face, not just the back.
Not the ‘actual’ address but the ‘best’ address? He gives them the -exact- address of the Clubhouse. Why does he give that address? Because that’s where Martin is. He wasn’t asked ‘is the suspect moving towards you?’, he was asked ‘He’s near the clubhouse right now?’. And he gives an answer, a simple ‘yeah’. And he notes that Martin is ‘now coming towards him’, which is logical since Zimmerman has said that he stopped his car further down just before the curve in the road.
Your ‘he tells them to drive ‘past’ the clubhouse’ is disingenuous, because it’s crystal clear that George only does this well after this point - after he makes the comment about the ‘ass holes always getting away’. Seems fairly clear that Martin has moved past the truck by now.
Some other points: In his re-enactment video, when he discusses parking his car facing east on Twin Trees just before the road curves south, George says he sees Martin ahead of him, walking on to the cut-through and turning right between the buildings. If this is true, it strongly suggests that George was following behind Martin in his car.
Going back to the re-enactment video: After turning right between the buildings, Martin then walks (George specifically says ‘walks’) all the way back to George’s truck, and circles it.
Now, this ‘circling’ is not mentioned in the 911 call. But let’s go with it for a minute: If Martin was near the cut-through when George calls 911, and we completely ignore the ‘Martin’s near the Clubhouse’ bit early on, a rough estimate of the distance walked by Martin is about 300 feet. That would take about a 75-80 seconds or so, give or take. There’s -just- about enough time from George’s comment at 00:00:42 of the 911 call (“He’s here now”) if here = near the cut-through, for Martin to walk from near the cut-through, turn right behind the houses, walk back to George’s truck, and circle it, in about a minute.
There’s just one teeny tiny problem with this scenario: Martin is still next to his truck when George gets out, because the 911 call doesn’t give Martin enough time to walk away again from George’s truck.
George also fails to mention this in his re-enactment video: He says that Martin came back and circled his truck, but then says that he was ‘asked for a specific address of where he was’ (which is of course a lie) so he got out of the car. He makes -no mention- of what Martin did or what direction he went after circling his truck! But he just gets out of his truck, which seems like an odd thing to do is a possibly armed suspicious guy that had been ‘checking you out’ was still close by. Notice also that his re-enactment video does not mention him seeing Martin run, which is odd, because at 00:02:08 of the 911 call, this is clearly the reason George gets out of the car.
Face it - we can not reconcile the 911 call version of events with George’s re-enactment (and future) versions of events. They do not add up.
Finally - we have to question why George needed to get out and find a ‘street sign’ or get ‘an address’ - he had already given them an address: 1111 Retreat View Circle. It was near where he had parked, and was about as close as an address on the other side of the cut-through would have been.
But if you prove point #3 that the killing was “unlawful” then you dispense with all of the points that the other poster bolded, no?
Not only that, but even the Judge has remarked that Zimmerman’s version of events changed with each retelling. For example, he first claims that Trayvon assaulted him from some “bushes”, however, during the re-enactment there were no bushes nearby. Even Serino (the officer in the case) commented that for someone who lived in the area as long as Zimmerman, he ought to know the street names. He (Zimmerman) claims he can’t remember and takes medication for ADD. Surprising. I hate to be an arm-chair psychologist, but Zimmerman is a narcissist through-and-through. It’s evident in his bullying, disregard for authority, and explains, in part, his unemotional and monotone conversations with his wife. He’s manipulating the lot of you. Then again, that’s what a narcissist does best. Maya Angelou’s advice for when these situations rings true: "When people show you who they are, believe them." Instead, the peanut gallery believes every word Zimmerman says as if his testimony had been brought down from Mount Sinai by Moses himself.
This has been stated many times in this thread. Please cite to any poster who believes EVERY word that Zimmerman says.
So, sure, you can point out minor inconsistencies in his story. I’m sure that if I told you the story above how I drove home today, evidence might point out inconsistencies. “Oh yeah, there was road construction there.” “Yes, I did talk to a guy at work for 10 minutes before I left.” “Yes, I took a dump before I left.”
The human mind cannot retell a story with exactness even under routine circumstances, let alone recall minute details after you just killed a man. And I would even concede that Zimmerman perhaps lied about some of these details because he doesn’t want to spend the next 10 to 40 years in jail. That doesn’t mean that he wasn’t in fear for his life when he shot Martin.
Arguments about which street he was near does not disprove his claim of self-defense.
He says best address he can give because he can’t give the actual address. If Martin was at the clubhouse at this point he would have said so. He’s not directing the police to Martin, he’s directing them to his truck. All the instructions to the dispatcher are directed to his location.
He never during the entire conversation states Martin is at the clubhouse. He agrees in passing that he’s near the clubhouse but then continues with his narrative of what is going on. At this point he’s parked near the cut through and giving directions to the police using the clubhouse as a reference. He never tells them to go to the clubhouse but always to go past it. It’s a simple point to address in court.
No, it’s about 120 to 130 feet. You can easily measure this on Google Earth.
No, I already did the math earlier. He had plenty of time. And according to Zimmerman’s 911 call he ran.
The dispatcher clearly asks him repeatedly where he is located throughout the call and at 3:21 says it verbatim: “Alright, what address are you parked in front of?”
Zimmerman never said he thought Martin was armed on the 911 call. He said he looked like he was on drugs or something. It doesn’t seem odd at all that he tries to keep Martin in sight. He’s got the police on the way who will call him on his phone when they arrive. If he saw Martin again he can then direct them on the phone.
So? He admits he was following him on the phone and agrees to stop. What’s your point? He can’t do both? He’s still giving directions on the phone after he got out of the car. The dispatcher suggests the police call him when they arrive and he eventually asks for them to do just that.
There’s nothing in his re-enactment that is radically different from the phone call or more importantly relevant to the trial. We know the confrontation began near the T and ended behind the 2nd Condo. This is the entire trial.
I’ve lived in my neighborhood for 20 years. Couldn’t tell you the name of the street next to mine or any of them in the plat. I have no reason to know the name of the streets.
It was obvious from the phone call that George didn’t know the name of the street. He struggled with directions to the Dispatcher. There is no disputing this. There is also no relevance to it.
As for the bushes, there are bushes lining both sides of the back yards adjacent to the confrontation. If Zimmerman doesn’t see him while walking both directions of the T, where is he going to conjecture that Martin was hiding in and came from? The bushes. It doesn’t mean Zimmerman was standing next to the bushes, it means he thinks Martin came out from the bushes. If you look at the video he points in the direction of the bushes as the line of travel Martin came from. Big mystery.
One thing I’ve noticed is that when you make these kinds of crazy statements, you never back them up with cites. People who challenge you do, however. They bend over backwards for you. But why? It’s like you are CleverBot’s evil brother, spitting out the same nonsense despite what’s posted.
It’s tiring.
I don’t know why you’re saying this. It concerns me because its clearly bullshit, but you seem to have no problems passing it off as fact. The SCOTUS language is as clear as legalese can be that the burden for the prosecution does not change just because someone asserts self defense.
If it was discovered tomorrow that Zimmerman had sent a text message to his wife, saying that the mere sight of Martin had filled him with hate and this is what compelled him to go after him and physically show him who’s boss, this would be damning evidence for murder. But you’re seriously trying to say that, even with this evidence, the prosecution would have to directly address whether or not Zimmerman’s fear against Martin was reasonable? Really? You really expect us to buy this, Bricker?
Even folks inclined to believe Zimmerman is innocent as baby Jesus can see through this, and that is saying a lot.
Just stop with this. It doesn’t even sound specious, it’s just that bad.
I just assumed you actually read the 911 call transcript that is easily found on the net and posted on this thread. He clearly doesn’t know the name of the street. He gives the outside street which he lives on every other attempt at directions is landmark based.
When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse.
Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left.
Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck.
Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address.
I actually never thought that Zimmerman was at the clubhouse either. For the longest time, I thought he had been creeping along in his truck on either Retreat View or Twin Trees while on the call. In recent weeks, after getting a better visual on the neighborhood, I think he was parked at the cut through all throughout the call.
What’s curious to me is why **Magiver ** isn’t bothered by the fact that George himself says he was at the clubhouse when he phoned the dispatcher. In his reenactment, he said he was parked in front of the clubhouse when Martin passed by him, then he pulled out and followed him down Twin Trees. Of course the timing for all the rest of the call is completely off if this is what he did, because it would require Martin to teleport himself down the street, double back, walk about Zimmerman’s truck, and then run off in a matter of seconds…but this is what the big guy said is what happened, so it must be true.
He said he started the phone call at the clubhouse. Where is the discrepancy? Martin has already passed him at this point. The reenactment starts with Zimmerman leaving his house.
at 25 mph it would take about 9 seconds to travel 300 feet in his car from the clubhouse to where he parked the truck.
I could say the same about myself, especially the “no reason to know” part. However, I’m bemused that as a designated Neighbourhood Watch coordinator who lived on one of the three streets of the gated community he’d been patrolling for years Zimmerman didn’t make an effort to do so, if only to facilitate the dozens of calls he made to the police.
Totally false.
Look at this map. In the reenactment, Zimmerman claims he spotted Martin on his way to the store. Martin supposedly was by Frank Taffe’s house, the house indicated in blue. That’s four house blocks down form the clubhouse.
Upon seeing the kid, Zimmerman supposedly turned right, drove to the clubhouse, and parked. That is when he says he called the dispatcher. While he was the on phone, Martin supposedly passed his truck and then he lost sight of him. That is supposedly what prompted Z to back out of the parking space and drive down Twin Trees to find his mark.
Magiver, you are doing such a poor job trying to make Zimmerman’s story fit that I suspect you’re causing even die hard supporters to abandon Team Z. The irrationality is really extra rich tonight.
He’ll never give it up. If Zimmerman is convicted, he’ll probably end up in the Idaho wilderness with Randy Weaver.
Yes, that would be correct. The timeline on the internet starts at 00:25 which means he’s already been on the phone for 25 seconds. He starts the call from the clubhouse. His first attempt at giving a location is at 1:39 and he tells them to drive past the clubhouse. Martin is already past him. Prior to this (at 01:03) he says Martin is coming to check him out. Prior to that he says Martin is just walking around looking at houses. He has at least a minute of phone time before Zimmerman say’s he’s coming toward him and that is enough time for Martin to walk the distance.
.Again, he started the call from the clubhouse. It’s a 10 second drive away from where he eventually parked. According to the video he drives by Martin, stops at the clubhouse, Martin walks by, He then calls the police and parks his car near the cut-through. where is the descrepancy? He doesn’t call from the cut-through, he calls from the clubhouse. But all the references are past the clubhouse. Martin is already down the road when he drives on. In his call he already states that Martin is walking about looking at houses.
