And how would a EMT diagnose a skull fracture? It brings up the question if Zimmerman was even responsible for any action that happened after having his skull bounced off the concrete
Sure. If so, it presents two possibilities
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One investigator doesn’t know what the other is doing or has done. If so, more incompetency.
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The investigator on the stand chose to answer it in the narrowest way, hiding for some reason that they requested the records at the expense of making the prosecution team look incompetent.
Yeah but if the shooting happened behind the house and he was still in front of the house when talking to the 911 operator, then how did he get behind the house if he was supposedly walking back to his truck when the conflict started?
Did he have to go behind the houses to get back to his truck? Why did he go behind the houses? He had to since that’s where Martin was shot right? I mean, was he looking for the address on the back of the house for some reason?
Again, why would they need to do this if they didn’t believe he was seriously injured at the time he was interviewed?
If the paramedics cleaned him up and released him, noting no significant injuries or symptoms of such, and the cops themselves found no evidence that he had a broken nose, and Zimmerman himself reported feeling okay through his entire stay at the station…why should they have then gone through the trouble of getting a court order for medical records? They trusted their own evidence of Zimmermans health status.
The state is only interested in proving its side of the case, not looking for evidence that backs the defendant’s side. If the state didn’t think these medical records were relevant in to proving its case, then there would be no need for them to get these records. Obviously, they aren’t all that interested in Zimmerman’s claim of getting his nose broken. This is something the defense is focused on.
Not just O.J., Dershowitz is famous for defending scumbags Jim Bakker, Michael Milken, Leona Helmsley, Mike Tyson. Not that scumbags don’t deserve representation but he is something of a radical. I don’t think there is any righteous prosecution in Dershowitz’s America.
Pretty funny a right-wing cesspool like Breitbart.com embracing the opinions of Dershowitz, though.
If there were signs of a broken nose or head trauma, the paramedics should have referred Zimmy to the ER right away. A swollen bloody nose and bleeding head wounds are cardinal signs of both, respectively.
Do you think the paramedics were too incompetent to do this? Do you think they did refer Zimmerman to the ER, but Zimmy declined because he preferred a trip to the police station over medical care? Or do you believe the paramedics didn’t refer Zimmy to the ER, not because of incompetence, but because when they cleaned him up, they didn’t find any signs of a broken nose or head trauma?
I believe in the third scenario, because it is consistent with the surveillance video and Zimmerman’s delay in seeking medical care. It’s also consistent with the lack of detail in the police report. The other two scenarios require me to believe the paramedics were either shoddy or that Zimmerman was capable of white-knuckling through severe pain while being interviewed, and yet somehow he wasn’t so stoic and brave when he supposedly was bawling for help like a kid on that 911 tape.
Exchanges like the one with Larry Mudd and Bricker make me wonder how defendants in self defense cases ever get a fair trial, it seems the public has a much different understanding of what is legal self defense than what is written in statute.
I guess jury instructions must be really good at making jurors understand the issues, but with so many people (not saying anyone here, specifically) basically asserting “who give a shit about the legal specifics, he’s a murderer” I do have to think this is an instance where Zimmerman has a far better chance at a bench trial of receiving an appropriate verdict.
Do you have a cite for this?
Since there are only two investigators working on the case, it is rather unlikely that Gilbreath would be totally unaware if O’Steen was trying to get the records or already had them even if Gilbreath hadn’t actually read them. Gilbreath knew the O’Steen had questioned DeeDee, even though he didn’t do it himself.
I still don’t understand why you are literally obsessed with proving that Zimmerman had no serious injuries. It’s an extremely simple factual question that will be resolved at trial by persons who have access to the EMT report along with Zimmerman’s medical records.
Even a next day physician’s medical records will more or less settle any questions, as any physician treating (just as an example) a broken nose will be able to testify as an expert as to the injuries and will probably have X-Rays and maybe even photos.
I don’t know why people (you specifically) think this is something that can be definitively proven at this stage, and I’m also puzzled why you want to: it will be definitively settled when the court looks at an EMT report (if one exists) and Zimmerman’s medical records from his physician. If those indicate a broken nose, then he had a broken nose and all the tortuous logic you’ve engaged in is irrelevant. If they don’t indicate a broken nose, don’t indicate serious injuries to the back of the head, then all the tortuous logic you engaged in is still irrelevant, because the only relevant issue is the demonstrable medical facts which have already been recorded and are just waiting to be revealed to the public at large.
You need a cite that a broken nose and head trauma are serious injuries that are best treated and evaluated under a physician’s care, at a hospital, rather than the back of a police car?
Your logic on deciding which scenario you believe is flawed simply because of what I take is an extreme unfamiliarity with trauma on your person.
Broken noses and even serious concussions do not necessarily cause “white knuckle pain.” I’ve been concussed (which is a serious injury) and there was relatively little pain, certainly not white knuckle pain. Pain spasms from a UTI were orders of magnitude worse, for example.
In fact one of the more dangerous things about concussions is people often won’t recognize they’ve been concussed.
Yes. I’m looking for a cite that someone with a broken nose or head trauma similar to Zimmerman’s needs to be taken to the ER right away, as you say.
I am not obsessed with proving that he wasn’t seriously injured. I just dont assume he was seriously injured in the absence of evidence, collected at the scene, that he was.
Posters are expressing bafflement as to why the prosecution hasn’t bothered seeking copies of Zimmermans medical records. I don’t know find this baffling at all, and I’m simply explaining why.
It’s pretty obvious that Zimmerman ‘contradicted’ himself/lied under oath during the bail hearing on Friday regrading what he believed Martin’s age to be, as can he made it quite clear that he assessed Martin to be in ‘his late teens’ only minutes before the shooting during the (now infamous) 911 call :
911 dispatcher: How old would you say he is?
Zimmerman: He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens.
911 dispatcher: Late teens?
Zimmerman: Uh, huh.
I agree about the contradiction, but was he actually under oath when he spoke at his bail hearing?
It’s baffling if the prosecution wishes to win its case. The medical records can either help the prosecution, help the defense, or be inconclusive. Either way as a trial lawyer you want this information, if it helps the other side you need to be prepared for dealing with it at trial and undermining it. If it helps your case, it becomes part of your argument and the other side has to try and cast doubt on the medical report findings.
If it is inconclusive there is still value in knowing, because it will allow you to decide how to proceed on that issue and make reasonable assumptions about how the other side might proceed.
See here for what is indicated for persons who have experienced head trauma.
I can’t help you if you need a cite to support that head trauma conducive for a concussion plus a broken nose warrants hospital attention.
I really hope Zimmerman was grilled about this weak spot of the story, because it determines whether he’s lying or if he’s telling the truth. If he lied about the whole reason for being there, even if it’s just a little bit, why should we believe anything else he says?
I don’t believe him if his story is that he got out to check on street signage. That’s just bananas. But even if that is the truth, he still needs to explain how in they got from the truck to the grass. Did Martin fling him over there? Did Martin punch him in the street and then an angry Zimmerman ran after him? Did Zimmerman get out to check the street signage and then, now having a location to give the cops, amble towards the yard (perhaps engrossed in his phone) where a crouching tiger, hidden Martin attacked him?
Or did Zimmerman, in his statement to the police, admit to getting out of his truck to track Martin? And did he tell them that Martin didn’t punch him next to the truck or out in the street, but out in the between-the-houses area where the two met up? Because if this is the case, then I can see why the police kept him only for a few hours and then released him. That’s a very straightforward, believable story from a man who’s admitting he did something that–in hindsight–was pretty foolish but perfectly legal. But if Zimmerman’s story is anything like what his surrogates have said (and please, pedants, note that I said IF), then I don’t see why the cops didn’t find the whole thing puzzling enough to keep him longer than they did.
I don’t know what he told them. But I find it strange that Zimmerman’s father would relay a distorted story. Why would Zimmerman lie to his own father but to tell the truth to the police? Why would his father, knowing the visibility of the case, tell a story that would contradict his own son’s account? I’m thinking that if I were the father and Zimmerman had told me that he’d gotten out of his truck to follow Martin, I wouldn’t try to hide that fact. I’d say, “Yeah, he was following the kid, but from a distance. That’s not against the law, ya’ll.” So even if the father’s account is not admissible in court, the weirdness of what Zimmerman’s father says happened and the established facts of the case (i.e., the fight didn’t happen in the street, but over yonder quite a bit) make me really curious about what Zimmerman told the police that night.
I’d hope the prosecution would have a much clearer and much more significant contradiction than this. “About like his late teens” and “About my age (26)” aren’t that different.