Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread

[you_with_the_face]

@doorhinge

Martin was 5 feet, 11 inches tall and weighed 158 pounds at the time of his death.

Zimmerman’s height is shown as 5’8" and his weight as 185 pounds on his Seminole County Sheriff’s Office Inmate Booking Information.

185lbs - 158lbs = 27lbs

On the night of the shooting (you know, the date that matters most), Zimmerman’s weighed 200 lbs.

Documents in the Trayvon Martin Case

200 lbs - 158 = 42 lbs.

[you_with_the_face]

Better yet, all one has to do is look at Zimmerman’s much touted medical report to see how much he weighed.

http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/zimmerman_bond_hearing_exhibits/george_zimmerman_medical_report.pdf

204 - 158 = 46 lbs.

Anyone who has lugged one of those 40-lbs kitty litter containers up a flight of stairs will tell you that a differential of 46 lbs is nothing to sneeze at.

[doorhinge]

@you_with_the_face

On the night of the shooting (you know, the date that matters most), Zimmerman’s weighed 200 lbs.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/05/17/us/trayvon-martin-documents.html
200 lbs - 158 = 42 lbs.

That document lists TM as 6 foot tall and weight 160. GZ is listed at 5 foot 7 inches and 200 lbs. Those numbers don’t match other documents where the actual heights and weights were measured.

Martin is listed as an inch taller than his actual size and Zimmerman is listed as an inch shorter. I suppose it’s possible that they guessed the weight correctly???

Did the Sanford Police Department Offense Report include actual measurements taken by the police or were they just estimates?

[you_with_the_face]

@doorhinge

That document lists TM as 6 foot tall and weight 160. GZ is listed at 5 foot 7 inches and 200 lbs. Those numbers don’t match other documents where the actual heights and weights were measured.

First off, that link includes multiple documents, not just one. To figure out Martin’s dimensions, look at the medical examiner’s report. It lists him as 71 inches tall (5’11) and 158 lbs.

To figure out Zimmerman’s dimensions, look at his medical report taken a day after the shooting. He’s 5’7.5 and 204 lbs.

The fact that Martin was taller than Zimmerman but considerably lighter does not, contrary to the pro-Z brigade, help his defense. It hurts it. Martin would have been outclassed because he had a higher center of gravity. Relative to Zimmerman, he was Olive Oyl.

Did the Sanford Police Department Offense Report include actual measurements taken by the police or were they just estimates?

I don’t know if the SPD weighed Zimmerman. Kind of doubt it though. They probably just asked him how much he weighed.

[emeraldia]

@Steophan

I imagine it will fail, as Zimmerman can’t prove he didn’t start the physical fight.

I don’t think he needs to since he’s approaching it from traditional self-defense.

[emeraldia]

@you_with_the_face

It makes no sense for O’Mara to declare this a non-SYG case but then go through the motions of having an SYG hearing.

You’re not listening.

SYG did two things:

1. Eliminated the Duty to Retreat
2. Created a pre-trial hearing for immunity from criminal and civil liability that applies to all self-defense situations, but is often confusingly called a “SYG hearing”.

O’Mara has stated that this is not a SYG case in that 1. does not apply since Zimmerman was unable to retreat. He will argue traditional self-defense at the confusingly named “SYG hearing” (which is really just a self-defense immunity hearing.)

[emeraldia]

@you_with_the_face

Anyone who has lugged one of those 40-lbs kitty litter containers up a flight of stairs will tell you that a differential of 46 lbs is nothing to sneeze at.

TM wasn’t lugging GZ up a flight of stairs. TM was on top of the 40-lbs kitty litter beating the crap out of it, so how much it weighed didn’t matter.

[Terr]

@you_with_the_face

Your logic is messed up. If he’s not granted SYG immunity, he can still be sued. Since this isn’t a SYG defense (as O’Mara has stated), then SYG immunity doesn’t apply, and therefore he won’t be immune from civil litigation.

It makes no sense for O’Mara to declare this a non-SYG case but then go through the motions of having an SYG hearing.

You don’t understand what “SYG hearing” is, and what “SYG defense” means.

[Terr]

@enomaj

Why would we throw out Zimmerman’s accounts when they’re some of the prime sources of evidence against him?

ETA: I suspect this why O’Mara is backing off the SYG hearing.

O’Mara is not backing off the SYG hearing.

[JoelUpchurch]

@DragonAsh

No they weren’t. Almost every witness noted numerous times how dark it was and how it was too dark to really see details of what was going on.

GZ’s gun was black, in a black holster, and it was in an innerwaist band holster that was behind GZ near his right rear pocket. There’s not a snowball’s chance in hell someone could see it. And that’s even before we get into the ridiculous contortions that GZ would have to go through to a) use his right arm to pin Martin’s left arm, while b) simultaneously, with the same right arm, draw his gun and shoot Martin, while still pinning Martin’s arm.

If George found it this easy to pin Martin’s arm, draw his weapon from underneath him and shoot a perfect bull’s-eye into Martin’s heart, all while Martin apparently sat there like a log waiting to get shot…WTF was George doing up until that point? Both arms were free, and he outweighs Martin by a significant amount.

[ul]
[li]At the point where Zimmerman says that Martin saw his firearm, they were under Witness #6’s porch light.[/li]
[li]Being overweight isn’t helpful when you are on the bottom and it is considerably harder to get up when the guy on top is hitting you. Zimmerman was able to push Martin off after he shot him, when Martin wasn’t hitting him.[/li]
[li]The fact that Zimmerman hit Martin in the heart was a fluke. If you read the autopsy report, it wouldn’t have taken much change in angle to have gotten a grazing wound across the front of Martin’s chest or a clean miss. [/li]
[li]The actual holster is designed to be worn at three or four o’clock. It wasn’t designed to be a small of the back holster.[/li][/ul]

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@Bricker

They should be.

At the SYG hearing, the jury must be persuaded by preponderance of the evidence that Zimmerman acted in self-defense.

At trial, the jury must be persuaded beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did NOT act in self-defense.

Well, yeah, I know it’s supposed to work like that. That was the premise of my question.

I was asking about how these things play out as a practical matter.

[you_with_the_face]

@Terr

You don’t understand what “SYG hearing” is, and what “SYG defense” means.

Of course I do.

O’Mara is an idiot. His remarks were completely unhelpful to his client.

[Terr]

@you_with_the_face

Of course I do.

Of course you don’t. Otherwise you wouldn’t post the stupidity that you posted.

[BlankSlate]

I see the liars are still spinning fantasy yarns about a “brutal beating” and “serious injuries”. Keep on fooling nobody but your lying selves.

[you_with_the_face]

@Steophan

The reasonable assumption is that, if he could have escaped without shooting him, he would have escaped in the couple of minutes while he was taking a beating, prior to shooting Martin.

That is not a reasonable assumption because it pre-supposes that Martin was beating up Zimmerman. This requires a jury to decide.

He is having the SYG hearing to attempt to get that immunity, not because it is necessary to clear Zimmerman’s name. He is saying SYG won’t be used at the trial, if it happens, so losing the SYG hearing won’t affect the trial.

And so what? Losing the SYG hearing would not affect the trial, with or without it being tried as a traditional self-defense case.

If O’Mara is really planning on trying this case as traditional self-defense as opposed to SYG, he’s making it unnecessarily harder on himself. Instead of merely saying “look, regardless of if the defendant could flee or not, he was entitled to standing his ground due to the attack violent against his person”, he’s now saying his defense will be “look, the defendant couldn’t get away, that’s why he had to kill Martin who was violently attacking him.”

Why would an smart attorney choose this approach?

[Bricker]

@PatriotX

I appreciate a good talking down to as much as the next guy.
I suspect you’re trying to be helpful–which you have been. I am thankful for that. I genuinely appreciate your willingness to participate and answer questions. It’s wonderful decision on your part.
Thank you.

But afaict, we’re on the same page.
I am not trying to prove GZ guilty. I am really not. I am just discussing what I am discussing.
I am definitely not willing to put fort the time nor the effort to comb through the necessary items to go about playing junior prosecutor.
I am more about playing an armchair mystery novel book club enthusiast–a junior one. That’s more about the level of commitment I am willing to make.

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I don’t think GZ has been candid one more than one count.
I don’t think it’s plausible that GZ thought there would be a street sign where there is no intersection.
I think the evidence tells us that GZ’s plan was meeting the cops before and after he crossed the block.
I don’t think GZ was some racist thug who set about to commit a murder or a crime.
I find some of the reasoning presented on t3h int4rweb5 to be squishy e.g.
I don’t think the wounds demonstrate who initiated the physical altercation.

:shrug:

I honestly can’t figure out anyway it matters in my life if GZ is convicted or acquitted.
I am here for the ride, not the destination.

I agree with you that Zimmerman is a liar.

But as far as the trial goes, the state needs to prove that certain things happened.

Can they prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Treyvon Martin is dead? Yes.
Can they prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he died in Seminole County in the state of Florida? Yes.
Can they prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Treyvon Martin died because George Zimmerman killed him? Yes.
Can they prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that George Zimmerman did not reasonably fear serious bodily injury? I don’t think so, based on the evidence I have seen.

[Fear_Itself]

@Bricker

Can they prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that George Zimmerman did not reasonably fear serious bodily injury? I don’t think so, based on the evidence I have seen.

They may prove this, but they don’t have to. The jury may decide Ziimeran’s claim of fear of serious bodily injury is simply not reasonable on its own merits.

[Bricker]

@Fear_Itself

They may prove this, but they don’t have to. The jury may decide Ziimeran’s claim of fear of serious bodily injury is simply not reasonable on its own merits.

Yes, they do have to prove it. There must be positive evidence on the record to support every single finding the jury makes.

If there is not, then Zimmerman gets an acquittal as a matter of law.

Your statement is wrong, again as a matter of law. The prosecution must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman was not in reasonable fear of serious bodily injury.

[hmarvin]

Having watched the reenactment for the first time, I could see how easily Zimmerman was able to reach behind his back wirthout moving his upper arm or elbow. From this, it’s certainly plausible that he could hold Martin’s arm, and still get his gun. IMO, another theory shot down. (granted he was standing, but it wouldn’t make much difference.)

[Shodan]

@you_with_the_face

That is not a reasonable assumption because it pre-supposes that Martin was beating up Zimmerman.

That Martin was beating up Zimmerman is not a presupposition. It is a conclusion based on the evidence.

Instead of merely saying “look, regardless of if the defendant could flee or not, he was entitled to standing his ground due to the attack violent against his person”, he’s now saying his defense will be “look, the defendant couldn’t get away, that’s why he had to kill Martin who was violently attacking him.”

Why would an smart attorney choose this approach?

Because of the evidence he has available to show that Martin was violently attacking him. There is a witness who says she saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. There was wetness on the back of Zimmerman’s shirt, indicating that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground. Zimmerman has a broken nose and black eyes, indicating that he was punched. There is a scrape on Martin’s knuckle that indicates that he punched someone.

The only thing about SYG in this case is the hearing where Zimmerman will have a chance to show he was acting in self-defense, and which will immunize him from prosecution and civil action if he prevails. The duty to retreat that SYG is supposed to remove doesn’t enter into this case - you can’t retreat if someone is sitting on top of you pounding your head on the ground, and therefore it makes no difference if Zimmerman should have run away or not.

Regards,
Shodan