Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread

[Magiver]

@betenoire39

So let me get this straight:

You question the girl’s intelligence (again, WTF does that have to do with her account??).

You make fun of Martin (with your hair trigga comments).

You ascribe archetypal behavioral characteristics (violence, excitiability, etc) to Martin, even though you have no evidence other than Zimmerman’s word and a fucking scratch on martin’s finger.

So the checklist of shit you’ve written about:

–lack of intelligence
–prone to violence
–“gangsta” culture (WTF???)

in addition, you make fun of Martin.

I really don’t know who you think your fooling, but it’s not me.

Yes, you are a fucking bigot.

lets review what you’re objecting to and accusing someone of racial bias over:

Dee Dee - her testimony is abysmal. She can’t construct a sentence to save her life and it’s very disjointed on top of that. I’ve read it many times and it is difficult to understand what she is trying to say. Her skin color (assuming she’s black) does not cause or change this.

Martin’s actions - He went out of his way to confront Zimmerman. There is simply no evidence to indicate how he got to the top of the T except under his own free will with he intent to confront Zimmerman. His attack was sustained and brutal based on the evidence.

Gangsta culture - He self identifies as a no_limit_nigga who wears grillz. He’s a wanna-be bad boy. It has nothing to do with skin color.

Your post is yet another example of your inability to post a rational thought and argue it’s merits. You have no control over your emotions at all and while that is a personal demon that’s yours to deal with it’s not appropriate to call other posters names.

If you can’t post a cogent thought and back it up with something then you’re reducing yourself to rants. In this instance, it’s a racial rant.

[Idle_Thoughts]

@betenoire39

Yes, you are a fucking bigot.

You’ve been told about this before, in this very thread. Calling other names are not allowed in this forum. If you have a problem with another poster, you take it to the pit.
So this is an official warning for you now. Do not do this again.

[Magiver]

@dimmy_derko

For those who think TM ran down to his dad’s place and back again, consider this: if when Z said “He’s running!” TM had just started running down the dog path, even if Z was only jogging at a moderate pace towards where he’d saw TM last, how fast would TM have had to be going to be that far down the dog path that Z couldn’t see him running away?

That can’t be answered. What can be answered is that Martin and Zimmerman lost sight of each other.

@dimmy_derko

Or is it being suggested that TM would have done his running in the shadows on wet grass? Seems unlikely to me when you’ve got a good start and a helpful path to run down.

Has the “right by his house” meme overtaken the “sneakily hiding and lying in wait” one now, or have they been combined to cover all bases?

One doesn’t “overtake” the other. If he was right by his house then he was a significant distance away (visually) at dusk. He would have blended into the shadows. The closer he is to the T intersection the more likely he is hiding or he would be seen.

What point are you trying to make regarding the 2 different scenarios?

[dimmy_derko]

None really, I’m just typing aloud. Which scenario do you prefer, just out of curiosity?

[betenoire39]

@Magiver

lets review what you’re objecting to and accusing someone of racial bias over:

1. Dee Dee - her testimony is abysmal. She can’t construct a sentence to save her life and it’s very disjointed on top of that. I’ve read it many times and it is difficult to understand what she is trying to say. Her skin color (assuming she’s black) does not cause or change this.

2. Martin’s actions - He went out of his way to confront Zimmerman. There is simply no evidence to indicate how he got to the top of the T except under his own free will with he intent to confront Zimmerman. His attack was sustained and brutal based on the evidence.

3. Gangsta culture - He self identifies as a no_limit_nigga who wears grillz. He’s a wanna-be bad boy. It has nothing to do with skin color.

4. Your post is yet another example of your inability to post a rational thought and argue it’s merits. You have no control over your emotions at all and while that is a personal demon that’s yours to deal with it’s not appropriate to call other posters names.

5. If you can’t post a cogent thought and back it up with something then you’re reducing yourself to rants. In this instance, it’s a racial rant.

1. Ok, so you think she can’t construct a sentence. Does this disqualify her statements and make her testimony less valid?

2. Bull. NO, Martin DID NOT go out of his way to confront Zimmerman.
   The ‘attack’ was NOT “sustained and brutal”.

I completely disagree with you.

3. You don’t know what the hell that means. So a person has an online name, you therefore conclude they are part of some “culture”? What a facile and bullshit analysis.

How fucking crazy is that?

I guess then we really have to choose our online names with care…because afterall, that is a reflection of who we are as people.

“Wanna-be bad boy”? What the fuck does that mean?

My goodness, this is getting crazy.

4. No, my post is about my ability to see through BULLSHIT and call people out on it. You ever heard of inductive reasoning? For instance, if I read a person writing derogatory statements about people who have certain features, making fun of them, saying they lack intelligence, saying they are violent, GEE I WONDER WHAT CONCLUSION I CAN COME TO? :rolleyes:

Oh, wait, maybe he doesn’t like people with those “certain features”? Is that a possibility? :smack:

“Racial rant” Again, what the fuck does this mean?
**
Another hallmark of these people–using coded language.**

I don’t speak in this coded language-Can you translate that for me and the others who are reading?

5. LOL.

[betenoire39]

@Idle_Thoughts

You’ve been told about this before, in this very thread. Calling other names are not allowed in this forum. If you have a problem with another poster, you take it to the pit.
So this is an official warning for you now. Do not do this again.

I am sorry…

[Steophan]

@betenoire39

1. Ok, so you think she can’t construct a sentence. Does this disqualify her statements and make her testimony less valid?

If her statement can’t be clearly understood, it’s not worth a great deal. If she’s called as a witness, she will have the chance to clarify any points and ensure that she’s heard properly.

2. Bull. NO, Martin DID NOT go out of his way to confront Zimmerman.
   The ‘attack’ was NOT “sustained and brutal”.

He, quite literally, had to go out of his way to encounter Zimmerman, as his way from Zimmerman’s truck to his destination - his father’s girlfriend’s house - did not lead him to reencounter Zimmerman.

The attack lasted a number of minutes, and caused several injuries to Zimmerman. I’d count that as sustained, certainly, and it’s evidence for brutality.

You ever heard of inductive reasoning?

Yes. It has no place in this discussion, as we’re talking about a specific incident.

Another hallmark of these people–using coded language

I don’t speak in this coded language-Can you translate that for me and the others who are reading?

The language I and others are writing in is English. I know my British English may occasionally sound quaint to your ears, but it’s certainly not unintelligible.

Although, if you really don’t understand English, it would explain a great deal.

[dimmy_derko]

@Steophan

If her statement can’t be clearly understood, it’s not worth a great deal. If she’s called as a witness, she will have the chance to clarify any points and ensure that she’s heard properly.

I think even if she had been crystal clear and extremely helpful, there’d still be those who’d insist she’d been coached.

@Steophan

He, quite literally, had to go out of his way to encounter Zimmerman, as his way from Zimmerman’s truck to his destination - his father’s girlfriend’s house - did not lead him to reencounter Zimmerman.

Do you think TM had his violent intentions from the moment Z started scoping him out? It doesn’t seem likely to me as he could have used the cut through directly facing Frank Taafe’s and lured Z by the lakeside away from prying eyes.

Pondering these earlier events raises the interesting question, if TM really had a criminal mind and a guilty conscience, why wouldn’t he have avoided the roads altogether and just took the diagonal shortcut by the lake straight over to the opposite corner? That TM didn’t run and take advantage of all the cut throughs should have tipped Z off that TM wasn’t the typical Goon he had to report, if he’d been operating on his A game and not just looking for things to find suspicious.

It makes me wonder how familiar TM was with the neighbourhood. Has anyone seen a report of whether he’d stayed there before and if not, how long he’d been into his stay at Brandy Green’s?

@Steophan

The attack lasted a number of minutes, and caused several injuries to Zimmerman. I’d count that as sustained, certainly, and it’s evidence for brutality.

For almost the entirety of that alleged 2 minutes, after taking Z by surprise, TM is supposed to have totally dominated Z, yet despite having broke Z’s nose with his first punch(allegedly), the rest of his onslaught failed to yield nothing more than a few scratches and a couple of cuts which required no stitches. That’s even after giving Z a few bonus head slams against a concrete surface.

Throughout this savage beatdown, Z seems to have not only forgotten the weapon he carries everywhere, but also what to do with his hands and every other instinct of basic self-defence necessary when a madman is trying to kill you.

It would seem that if TM hadn’t conveniently spotted Z’s gun, he could have carried on beating the crap out of Z until the cops had arrived, and Z would still have been screaming(allegedly) and shouting for help(allegedly). Was this guy really a club security employee or is this one of those web urban myths? Why hasn’t anyone tried tracking down his employer and former co-workers to get a better picture of just how capable Z was of handling himself in a tight corner?

[PatriotX]

@Magiver

Precise, no. The evidence indicates he was not within eyesight of Zimmerman which puts him away from the T intersection. There are 2 directions he can go, one is toward his house which he claims to be right by and the other is towards Zimmerman.

Or one of the other directions between the rows of houses. He also had a choice’ve started climbing up. He could have just hid himself. Or w/e.

@Magiver

There is no need to speculate on Martin’s motives or state of mind. He’s not on trial.

So why does it matter again where M was in re Brandy’s(?) place again?
Didn’t the point about M’s location have something to do with M’s state of mind? Isn’t the point that M wasn’t afraid because he didn’t flee further? Or that M had malice in his heart and laid in wait for Z–or doubled back to “get” Z and the evidence offered was M’s proximity to Brandy’s place.
AFAICT, the entirety of that particular line of argument about M location in reference Brandy’s place is only an attempt to demonstrate M’s state of mind or motives.

What IS the significance pointing out that M could have proceeded home before Z could have caught M because of M’s proximity to Brandy’s house if not to show that M wasn’t not afraid of Z as has been suggested?

What’s the point outside of trying to demonstrate M’s state of mind or motive?

@Steophan

Yes, Zimmerman followed Martin - I was contending that Martin wasn’t trying to get away, and using for evidence the fact that he had time to get to the place he was staying in the time Zimmerman was on the phone to the despatcher.

@Steophan

ETA My definition of “chasing” would be along the lines of “following someone who’s trying to get away from you, in an attempt to catch them”. **Zimmerman did neither part **of that, according to the evidence we have.

You’re speculating based on speculation about what someone you have never met thought during an event which you did not witness with only sketchy details and speculation as a basis and a blueprint.

@Steophan

Chasing him in a threatening fashion might do so, and if there’s evidence for that, it should be brought up.

It’s been brought up already, e.g. Z narratives.

If, on its face, it doesn’t seem threatening to have a strange man follow you in his truck and then get out of his vehicle and run after you, I doubt I have the power to convince you otherwise. That is beyond me.

But I do ask you to accept that a reasonable person could perceive that kind of thing as not non-threatening.

[Magiver]

@PatriotX

Or one of the other directions between the rows of houses. He also had a choice’ve started climbing up. He could have just hid himself. Or w/e.

Not sure what “climbing up” means but I stated he could have hid himself. We know they lost sight of each other and minutes later Martin is at the intersection of the T. Whether he was hiding or standing next to his house he managed to find himself next to the man he was originally avoiding. If Martin thought Zimmerman was threatening then his actions seem counterproductive. The rest your post continues to repeat itself so there’s no point in repeating my answer.

[Magiver]

duplicate post

[Magiver]

@betenoire39

I don’t speak in this coded language

You’ve accused people of racism in response to your imagination of a coded language. there is no coded language.

[Steophan]

@PatriotX

You’re speculating based on speculation about what someone you have never met thought during an event which you did not witness with only sketchy details and speculation as a basis and a blueprint.

No, I’m claiming that the evidence doesn’t support a particular contention, that is, that Zimmerman chased Martin. I’m not claiming I can prove he didn’t.

If, on its face, it doesn’t seem threatening to have a strange man follow you in his truck and then get out of his vehicle and run after you, I doubt I have the power to convince you otherwise. That is beyond me.

But I do ask you to accept that a reasonable person could perceive that kind of thing as not non-threatening.

I’m far from convinced that’s an accurate description of what happened. What evidence do you have that Zimmerman was running after Martin? That’s the part that could be considered threatening, if it happened.

[dimmy_derko]

At 13.25 in the reenactment video here, Z is explaining the moments after firing his gun.

Despite his admitted memory problems(for which he takes medication, not that it seems to be that effective when it comes to street names), he’s done really well and remembered all the important things that suggest Trayvon was a violent thug with murderous intent, yet he’s not sure if TM fell off him or was pushed(or even if he’d hit his target, amazingly enough), and just dives on TM’s back and spreads his arms, supposedly to remove the weapon he thought TM had.

He’s asked by one of the detectives if he flipped Trayvon over, but, alas, this detail eludes him and he starts talking about a guy with a flashlight who turns up on the scene. Z asks him if he’s a police officer and when the reply is “No” he asks Flashlight Man to help him restrain TM, who no doubt must have been putting up a heck of a struggle beneath Z’s bulk.

The guy instead opts to do the sensible thing and offers to phone the police, but Z is insistent that it is more important that he be helped.

As he is explaining that he has already phoned the police, a real officer approaches from the Retreat View Circle direction and we all know what happens next.

Any questions being raised in this brief segment?

Now, let’s look at this little snippet from an April news report.

The photographer told ABC News exclusively that they did not see the scuffle that night, but did hear it. The source saw Martin’s prostrate body on the wet grass and claims the gunpowder burns on Martin’s gray hoodie were clearly visible; the gunpowder marks could show that Martin was shot at very close range.

The photographer says that after the shooting Zimmerman asked to call his wife. When the photographer asked what to say, Zimmerman allegedly blurted out “man, just tell her I shot someone.”

In case you hadn’t guessed, Flashlight Man is also Helpful Photography Man too.

Anyone wondering how he could see TM’s chest when Z had him face down and was sat on his back? Is anyone also wondering how/when this man could have took photos of Z’s head if the police arrived as soon as he says?

Or why this guy says Z was more concerned about having his wife phoned to let her know he’d shot somebody(and go into “Oh fuck! What’s George done now?” overrdrive.)

[dimmy_derko]

For those of you really dedicated to defending Z’s good name, there’s an interesting vid here dissecting the reenactment and nen call, that you might want to try taking apart.

After mulling over the above vid, I’ve got to assume that the detectives accompanying him had heard the nen call, so why they didn’t have more questions for him is anybody’s guess.

Whytf did they not let him do his car jouney in as near-to real time as Z could remember, before then taking him back and repeating it, this time explaining what happened where?

How can anyone watch the above and be satisfied with the police lack of efficiency in providing a more useful timeline? If they were going to interrupt his narrative at all, why weren’t they asking him about the obvious jogging noises heard in the nen call?

Why didn’t they remind him exactly where the body was found? If they were just letting Z run his mouth knowing he was all over the place in his account, they certainly didn’t follow up on it.

[PatriotX]

@Magiver

If Martin thought Zimmerman was threatening then his actions seem counterproductive.

This is the speculation based on speculation I have been referring to. It is, imho, obviously an attempt to discern the motivations or mental state of M based upon the sketchy evidence available.
ymmv I see.

@Steophan

No, I’m claiming that the evidence doesn’t support a particular contention, that is, that Zimmerman chased Martin. I’m not claiming I can prove he didn’t.

The evidence seems to clearly support Z chasing M. Again, unless there’re some odd definitions being used.

@Steophan

I’m far from convinced that’s an accurate description of what happened. What evidence do you have that Zimmerman was running after Martin? That’s the part that could be considered threatening, if it happened.

Perhaps Z skipped after M or jogged after M or w/e.
AFAICT, the evidence that Z went after M is contained in Z NEN call. I can link to it again if you haven’t had a chance yet to review it.
If you’re into playing more semantics games, you should provide a definition of the key words so that we can save steps and time.

If you don’t think that Z went after M, I am not sure that we’re actually working from the same set of facts.

gl

[Magiver]

@dimmy_derko

For those of you really dedicated to defending Z’s good name, there’s an interesting vid here dissecting the reenactment and nen call, that you might want to try taking apart.

Nobody is interested in Zimmerman’s good name.

@dimmy_derko

After mulling over the above vid, I’ve got to assume that the detectives accompanying him had heard the nen call, so why they didn’t have more questions for him is anybody’s guess.

He was questioned for 5 hrs prior to the video. The video represents another way of trapping Zimmerman in his own words. An investigator has to be extremely careful not to ask any question that can be viewed as a leading question.

@dimmy_derko

Whytf did they not let him do his car jouney in as near-to real time as Z could remember, before then taking him back and repeating it, this time explaining what happened where?

because they’re trained to investigate these things and you’re not. The best way to catch someone in a lie is to grill them over and over and over again and look for slip-ups. While this is going on another team of investigators goes over the area and collects evidence. Under no circumstances do they want people trampling around during this time disturbing the scene.

@dimmy_derko

How can anyone watch the above and be satisfied with the police lack of efficiency in providing a more useful timeline? If they were going to interrupt his narrative at all, why weren’t they asking him about the obvious jogging noises heard in the nen call?

Why would they ask about the obvious jogging noises? They’re obvious. What exactly is a more useful timeline? Nobody on earth could precisely layout a timeline unless they videotaped it.

@dimmy_derko

Why didn’t they remind him exactly where the body was found? If they were just letting Z run his mouth knowing he was all over the place in his account, they certainly didn’t follow up on it.

Because it serves no purpose to show him the precise spot where the body was found. Nobody on the planet could precisely do this after the fact unless the body fell down a hole or there was some other precise locator to indicate this. It serves no investigative purpose to do so in this case.

[Steophan]

@PatriotX

If you don’t think that Z went after M, I am not sure that we’re actually working from the same set of facts.

gl

I’m working from the conclusion that Zimmerman attempted to follow Martin to see where he went, so he could inform the police of his location, and failed in that attempt. There’s no evidence Zimmerman threatened Martin in any way, and there is evidence that, after Zimmerman lost him, Martin chose to act in such a way that they’d encounter each other again, instead of going home, for reasons that probably died with him.

The tape contains no mention of Zimmerman running, or chasing, and it appears on listening to it (which I’ve done several times) that he stops moving during that conversation.

That seems to me the best interpretation of the relatively small amount of evidence for their movements, and even if you disagree with it being the best, it’s certainly a plausible one - unless you have any evidence I haven’t seen that disproves it.

I will say again, and maintain, that using “chase” to mean “walk after to see where they’re going, and stop as soon as one loses sight” is a non-standard usage, at minimum.

[Magiver]

@PatriotX

This is the speculation based on speculation I have been referring to. It is, imho, obviously an attempt to discern the motivations or mental state of M based upon the sketchy evidence available.
ymmv I see.

It’s not speculation to say that it’s counterproductive to move toward someone you were moving away from. If someone is swimming to shore and reverses direction it’s counterproductive toward the goal of swimming to shore. It does not address the motive for swimming to shore. It’s just an indication that is is counterproductive to that goal.

If you wish to speculate on motive for moving away from Zimmerman that’s your purview but whatever the motive it was counterproductive to move toward him.

[PatriotX]

@Steophan

There’s no evidence Zimmerman threatened Martin in any way…

Other than following M and then getting out of his car and then moving after M in such a way that Z’s breathing increased[perhaps Z was skipping?]

@Steophan

The tape contains no mention of Zimmerman running, or chasing, and it appears on listening to it (which I’ve done several times) that he stops moving during that conversation.

So Z just breathes hard when he is walking?
If it appears that Z stops moving, what sounds indicate that? His breathing? or the wind across the mic? Or w/e?
What were these air moving noises the result of?
You seem to think that these noises were not the result of Z skipping, jogging, running or w/e PC word we’re using atm.
Imho, these noises are the result of Z skipping, jogging, running or w/e PC word we’re using atm.

So it does seem that we have different facts. AFAICT, Z left his vehicle and went after [is that acceptable verbage?] M at a rate iof speed that either caused the air to rush past his phone mic in such a way that it made the noises we heard or the rhythmic air across the mic were the result of Zs increased breathing due to exertion.

Because according to Z, he continued to alk after stopping “following” M, but we don’t hear the same noises even though Z was walking.
This leads me to believe that it was not the walking whic resulted in the air across the mic noises we hear. ymmv

@Steophan

That seems to me the best interpretation of the relatively small amount of evidence for their movements, and even if you disagree with it being the best, it’s certainly a plausible one - unless you have any evidence I haven’t seen that disproves it.

A wide open set of hypotheses lack being disproved-- including the alien ninjas scenario.

@Steophan

I will say again, and maintain, that using “chase” to mean “walk after to see where they’re going, and stop as soon as one loses sight” is a non-standard usage, at minimum.

It seems that Z “lost sight” before he started [w/e PC word for chasing you want] M.

So, it does seem to me that we’re working with different facts. You think never got beyond a walk, and I think Z ran/jogged/skipped/(or w/e).
You think Z walked until he lost sight of M. I think he lost sight of M sometime prior to stopping.