Several people have made comments along these lines and similar - that innocent and harmless black teenagers are in grave danger from the police and other random people. These are just based on people’s projections of their worldview onto reality but have no basis in real life.
This type of thing happens (and is in fact a small part of the dynamic in this particular incident) but is statistically negligible.
By contrast, black teenagers coming to serious bodily harm from physical confrontations with others is a far more common and risky situation.
Excuse my confusion, because because it still sounds like you are saying that Dee-Dee’s statement is inconsistent with Zimmerman stopping his pursuit for long enough to wrap up with the 911 operator who’d just told him not to follow, and then blithely trotting after Martin anyway to make sure he didn’t get away. The story were were being asked to believe is that Martin showed up as the aggressor.
I am particularly confused by your inference that Zimmerman was not following Martin from Martin speaking first, given that his actual words were “Why are you following me?”
Not if Martin was in fear of death or great bodily injury, such as if Zimmerman reached for his gun. Then he is legally justified in bashing Zimmerman’s head on the sidewalk until he is dead, even if he was the initial aggressor. It’s the law.
That isn’t because of the gate, that is because on most sides there are no walls. If you actually read the Miami Herald linked in that post, you would know that. It talked about people sneaking in through the woods and stealing laptops. I commented in a previous thread about the ‘security theater’ of having a gates and no walls, but it worked to some extent since they stole laptops instead of big screen TVs. If they had walls around the whole subdivision, they probably wouldn’t need a neighbor watch.
Just because someone can sneak onto your property doesn’t mean they are welcome. When I was a kid, people would sneak onto our property to hunt, but it doesn’t mean they were welcome. Especially when a stray round would hit our house.
Also if read they Miami Herald article you could find many people in Twin Lakes had a lot of good things to say about Zimmerman.
The burden of proof would be on the prosecution to show that Zimmerman reached for his gun before Martin knocked him down and began beating his head against the ground.
The danger of this is that the prosecution thereby admits that Martin inflicted the injuries on Zimmerman. They would also have to present a plausible explanation of how Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun before Zimmerman drew the gun, or, if Martin waited to attack until after Zimmerman drew the gun, how Martin had a chance to bash Zimmerman’s head against the ground enough times to produce the injuries to the scalp before getting shot.
The fight lasted long enough for somebody to be screaming for help. If it was Zimmerman screaming, why would he show so much restraint as to not shoot, if he had the gun in his hand? Why did he wait until Martin bashed his head?
If it was Martin screaming for help, again, what was Zimmerman waiting for? Martin was clearly getting the better of the fight - why wouldn’t Zimmerman shoot?
The reasonable explanation, as far as we know to date, would appear to be that the reason the fight lasted almost a minute before Martin got shot, was that Zimmerman did not have the gun in his hand, or almost drawn, until after Martin attacked him and got the better of the fight.
IOW, again, it fits with the situation as Zimmerman describes it, and not very well with another.
If Zimmerman is this hair-trigger vigilante who approaches Martin with weapons at the ready, spoiling for a fight and eager for a chance to bag himself a n*gger, why would he wait to fire?
Maybe because Martin owning a handgun would be illegal since he was under 21? BTW I seem to recall some pictures of Trayvon with firearms, but as far as I know there was no indication that he actually possessed one.
The FDLE indicated that Martin had no juvenile arrest record. We might find out more from his school record if O’Mara unseals them. Based on the reports on what happened on the 26th, I doubt that Martin or Zimmerman knew anything about hand to hand combat that they didn’t learn in a school yard.
@JUpchurch. First of all I have read the article but since it was one of the first articles I read, I went ahead and reread it. It only mentions the woods one time in relation to a specific crime. I t does not say that’s how all the unknown/unwanted people got in and out. I can’t tell from google maps but if there spots you can enter without going through the woods or entering through the gate then people including residents and visitors would probably take the shortcuts from time to time. That’s what I meant by easy access. But since it appears that Martin did use the gate, the point is probably moot.
I also know about Zimmerman’s good deeds including his mentoring of two black children. But also know that Zimmerman thought that Trayvon was suspicious, an asshole and a punk(I’ll concede it.) based on very little evidence. I’m going to call that racial profiling. Walking slowly in the rain. Done it. Hey I was already wet. Looking about. Done it. We wouldn’t be having this conversation if Trayvon was white.
I think you are confused because I don’t regard DeeDee’s statement as a exact recording of the events. Since her statement wasn’t taken until weeks after the event we must regard her statements at best a rough approximation of what actually happened. If she actually takes the stand, then I think O’Mara will tear her apart.
Ask yourself how many telephone calls that you can recall exactly several weeks after the call?. I suspect that a Judge and Jury will be skeptical. I’ve read rumors that DeeDee had a twitter account. That might be useful, since it would be contemporaneous with the phone calls.
What was the level of suspicion necessary to prompt Zimmerman to report whites? Was it equal to that of blacks? Did the whites have to basically be breaking windows to earn a 911 call? Or was it enough that they just be walking down the street.
Despite my questions, I think racial profiling is a red herring here. Whatever it was that led Zimmerman to conclude Martin was up to no good, it had nothing to do with him actually committing a crime or comporting himself in a menacing manner. Which means his suspicions about Martin were completely unfounded. (But I do believe if Trayvon had been white, Zimmerman would have ignored him.)
The main reason this matters, in my opinion, is that Zimmerman seemed to be very resolute in his conclusion about Martin being bad. There wasn’t any “I think he’s up to no good”. He acted like it was an established fact that Martin was an asshole criminal.
So with this state of mind, he probably didn’t consider the possibility that by chasing his target, he was potentially scaring an innocent person. After all, criminals don’t run because they’re scared kids; they run because they’re trying to flee from justice, and Zimmerman wasn’t having that. Also, if he believed with the confidence of knowledge that Martin was a bad guy, his interactions with the kid likely would have been hostile and aggressive from the second that he encountered him. Especially if they stumbled upon each other by accident. And yet we’re supposed to believe he was the one who was the victim of Martin’s unprovoked aggression. That’s the part that doesn’t pass the smell test for many of us.
Folks here have insisted that it would’ve been foolish for Zimmerman to have brandished his weapon. But in his eyes, Martin obviously was a criminal. If it came down to his word against Zimmerman’s, who would choose to believe a thug claiming that Zimmerman pulled his gun out on him? No-life’s like Martin would be no competition against a magistrate’s son.
For some people out there, obeying the law only matters if they’re worried about getting caught and in trouble. When you look at Zimmerman’s arrest record, you can see why he might not have been all that worried about getting in trouble.
I don’t think many people will have much difficulty remembering the salient points of a telephone conversation which is terminated by the untimely death of the other party, blowing up into a major news story within two days.
At any rate, you seemed to think that her recollection of the conversation was significant when you erroneously believed that it might support the view that Martin doubled back to meet Zimmerman: “To not believe that, you have to disbelieve both Zimmerman and DeeDee. They both said that Martin lost Zimmerman and when they encountered each other that Martin was the first one to speak.”
They have Zimmerman’s own admission to prove that.
According to everything that has been leaked about Zimmerman’s statement to the police, and Zimmerman’s family’s recounting of what he told them, Trayvon only punched Zimmerman after Zimmerman “reached for his cellphone” and “inadvertently” displayed his gun while doing so.
Up to the jury to believe if he was really going for a phone and had no intent to show his gun at that moment. Who reaches for a cellphone during a face to face with someone suspected of being up to no good?
You were asserting that the gates were the main means for illegal access. I pointed out that your own link provides a counter example. Actually there plenty of places to get in. Go to Street View and move west of west of the wall. Even I could walk in there. I frankly don’t know what you are talking about shortcuts. It would involve cutting through people’s back yards and most people don’t like that.
You can assert that, but the proof is lacking. For me, dress is a major factory. If I see a white teenager with pants hanging down or tattoos, I going to keep a close eye on him. That may be a personal reaction. The only time I was ever held up was by a young white guy with long blond hair and no shoes. I remember one time I pissed off a white guy, who stormed in and demanded to know why I kept looking at him. I told him, “You have been sitting outside the store for 5 minutes with your engine running”. I guess that was a good enough answer since he didn’t hit me.
There is no evidence that Zimmerman had any abnormal aversion to black people. If you want to assert that Zimmerman was a racist, then you might as well assert that all white people are racist.
Everything we have about Zimmerman’s statements to the police are hearsay at this point. Do you have anything official? If not, then what are you basing your opinions on?