Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread

[betenoire39]

@Shodan

**Because, as Steophan has explained, in cases like this one and the Duke case and the Tawana Brawley case, there are always going to be people who automatically side with the black and against the white. **you with the face did it in the Duke case. As mentioned, she was proven wrong, but remains unembarrassed enough to do the same thing in this case. Others, like Sharpton and Spike Lee (and you) are race-baiting in this case.

Fortunately, the legal system was able to look beyond the racist crap that some were pitching, so that Tawana Brawley was exposed as a liar, the accused in the Duke case were cleared of the false charges against them, and Nifong, the detestable liar who cynically exploited the racism in his district to gain re-election, has been punished for his malfeasance.

It is to be hoped that the same will occur in this case. Zimmerman should be acquitted, preferably at the SYG hearing so as not to further trouble him. I suppose it would be too much to ask the race-baiters hereabouts would be embarassed by being proven wrong, again, but one can dream.

Regards,
Shodan

If you have an issue with** ywtf,** than that’s a separate issue–I really don’t know why that needs to be presented here.

You have some goddamned NERVE accusing me…I have made my position clear over the months…I FEEL ZIMMERMAN VIOLATED THE LAW. WHAT HE DID WAS IMMORAL, UNETHICAL AND WRONG. THAT’S WHY I AM AGAINST HIM.

Take your compound words elsewhere and get back on topic, if that’s possible.

[betenoire39]

@Steophan

This is a case brought against a hispanic person for racist reasons. It doesn’t have anything to do with Martin, it has to do with the victims - in this case, Zimmerman.

No this case was brought against a Hispanic person because this Hispanic person profiled Martin, followed him with a loaded gun and killed him. THAT’S WHY.

You have some balls calling Zimmerman a victim.

[you_with_the_face]

@betenoire39

You have some goddamned NERVE accusing me…I have made my position clear over the months…I FEEL ZIMMERMAN VIOLATED THE LAW. WHAT HE DID WAS IMMORAL, UNETHICAL AND WRONG. THAT’S WHY I AM AGAINST HIM.

Take your compound words elsewhere and get back on topic, if that’s possible.

Your actual opinions don’t matter to Shodan. Just like mine don’t. To him, the only reason we’re against Zimmerman is because of Martin’s race. There can be no other reason, okay?

He’s got a bad case of projection, and there is no sense in trying to argue him out of his distorted way of seeing the world.

[Hbns]

@betenoire39

You were unaware of something?

You’re thanking me for something?

First, I know you often forget but this is IMHO.
Second, I don’t treat, discussion or debate as bloodsport. Disagreeing with me on some point does not make someone my mortal enemy.

[Evil_Economist]

@betenoire39

In addition bringing up Tawana Brawley and Duke Lacrosse…

WTF does this have to do with this particular case?

Nothing…same shit you hear from the racist far-right…same shit.

Well obviously there’s no racial component to this case at all. I mean, just because:

1. “[T]he killings of black people by whites were more likely to be considered justified than the killings of white people by blacks.”
2. “Whites who kill blacks in Stand Your Ground states are far more likely to be found justified in their killings”
3. “the rates of murder and non-negligent manslaughter increased by 8 percent in states with Stand Your Ground laws”

Cite

I mean sure, there’s mountains of evidence of racial bias in SYG killings, but it doesn’t matter because…Tawana Brawley!

People who don’t see a problem with these laws will never be convinced, because they didn’t reason themselves into their positions; they’re just racists, and all we can do is wait for them to die and leave the world a better place.

[betenoire39]

@you_with_the_face

Your actual opinions don’t matter to Shodan. Just like mine don’t. To him, the only reason we’re against Zimmerman is because Martin’s of race. He’s got a bad case of projection, and there is no sense in trying to argue him out of his distorted way of seeing the world.

You know what, you’re right.

I will still stay here for the reasons I told** Hbns**…but I can’t get too caught up.

I just don’t get people like that…even though I had a “discussion” with Steophan about the Dooley case–a black man who shot a white man and claimed SYG and LOST.

I actually was relieved Dooley was sent to prison–he deserved it. I guess in “Shodan language”, I was ‘against’ the black guy.

I wasn’t reared that way–you don’t start shit with people and bail yourself out with a gun–that’s a COWARD to me.

I am sick and tired of this gun violence–it is EXTREMELY commonplace where I live.

I am sick and tired of people supporting bullies–that’s essentially what Zimmerman is (to me).

It’s wrong.

[Ellen_Cherry]

@betenoire39

Begging your pardon,

But are you out of your damned mind?

Again, WTF is a “race-baiter”?

What disciples?

What “lot”?

FYI, I don’t “follow” (whatever that means) Sharpton.

WTF does Sharpton have to do with this?

No I feel Zimmerman must be locked up because **HE COMMITTED A CRIME. **

**Are you aware of the role that social media played? The internet? Martin’s family?

There has been a huge outcry from not only Americans but people from around the world.**

“My lot”???

You need to get your head out of your ass and stop reading Stormfront or whatever shit you’ve been reading.

betenoire39 I’m issuing you a warning for this post, your fourth in this thread, all since November 3. The staff is discussing your behavior and posting privileges.

Ellen Cherry
IMHO Moderator

[Hbns]

@betenoire39

What disciples?

What “lot”?

Funny isn’t it?
When you insist on categorizing and segregating people they start to do the same thing to you.

You insist on the “you people” schtick… and look, they fire back with “you lot”.

We have come so far. :rolleyes:

[betenoire39]

@Evil_Economist

Well obviously there’s no racial component to this case at all. I mean, just because:

1. “[T]he killings of black people by whites were more likely to be considered justified than the killings of white people by blacks.”
2. “Whites who kill blacks in Stand Your Ground states are far more likely to be found justified in their killings”
3. “the rates of murder and non-negligent manslaughter increased by 8 percent in states with Stand Your Ground laws”

Cite

**I mean sure, there’s mountains of evidence of racial bias in SYG killings, but it doesn’t matter because…Tawana Brawley!

People who don’t see a problem with these laws will never be convinced, because they didn’t reason themselves into their positions; they’re just racists, and all we can do is wait for them to die and leave the world a better place.**

LOL!!

I would have to agree with you–expect about SYG.

I hear what you and Hbns are saying about SYG. **Don’t get me wrong–I GET IT. **

But my larger point is that some people have never needed SYG to get away with hurting or killing certain members of society.

In that LARGER sense, SYG really isn’t the issue.

It’s the dehumanization of certain people and the embrace of violence against them.

It’s the social dynamics in place.

[Hbns]

@Evil_Economist

People who don’t see a problem with these laws will never be convinced, because they didn’t reason themselves into their positions; they’re just racists, and all we can do is wait for them to die and leave the world a better place.

You should have stopped after “positions”. Drawing the conclusion that only racists support SYG laws isn’t credulous or reasonable.

Plenty of other reasons to support or not support regardless.

Am I a racist because I support prisons? There seems to be a lot more racial disparity there than with SYG.

[betenoire39]

@Ellen_Cherry

betenoire39 I’m issuing you a warning for this post, your fourth in this thread, all since November 3. The staff is discussing your behavior and posting privileges.

Ellen Cherry
IMHO Moderator

Sent a PM.

[Hbns]

@betenoire39

In that LARGER sense, SYG really isn’t the issue.

It’s the dehumanization of certain people and the embrace of violence against them.

It’s the social dynamics in place.

I agree. But still won’t support SYG. Not that it can’t be a workable concept, I just don’t believe we as citizen’s, nor our representatives as drafter’s of legislation have the wherewithal or foresight to get it right in all but an exceedingly rare number of instances. If the law is liable to result in a non-trivial amount harm and injustice then it should not be allowed to stand.

[betenoire39]

@Hbns

I agree. But still won’t support SYG. Not that it can’t be a workable concept, I just don’t believe we as citizen’s, nor our representatives as drafter’s of legislation have the wherewithal or foresight to get it right in all but an exceedingly rare number of instances. If the law is liable to result in a non-trivial amount harm and injustice then it should not be allowed to stand.

I respect that.

[Evil_Economist]

@Hbns

You should have stopped after “positions”. Drawing the conclusion that only racists support SYG laws isn’t credulous or reasonable.

Alright, I withdraw the claim that only racists support SYG. Let’s call it a sufficient but not a necessary condition.

[Starving_Artist]

@betenoire39

I wasn’t reared that way–you don’t start shit with people and bail yourself out with a gun–

What were you reared to do when you see someone slowly walking alone through your neighborhood at night, in the rain, bearing the description of people who’ve breaking into houses in your neighborhood, and, having family members and a home of your own that you care about and being uncertain of what might happen or who might be harmed in the next break-in, you’re determined to keep the guy in sight until the cops you’ve called arrive despite the fact the apparent perp has begun to run from you?

Keeping an eye on a suspicious looking person until the cops arrive is not “starting shit.”

And all the evidence we have at this time indicates that what Zimmerman bailed himself out from with his gun was a pummeling in the face and head by a guy who by that time he had every reason to think was a criminal.

[Terr]

@Jack_Batty

A lawyer should correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s not immunity – that’s acquittal, or dropping of charges. I was under the impression that immunity is granted with the acknowledgement that a crime has been committed, but that charges will not be carried forth.

It is acquittal from current charges AND immunity from any future charges.

[betenoire39]

@Starving_Artist

What were you reared to do when you see someone slowly walking alone through your neighborhood at night, in the rain, bearing the description of people who’ve breaking into houses in your neighborhood, and, having family members and a home of your own that you care about and being uncertain of what might happen or who might be harmed in the next break-in, you’re determined to keep the guy in sight until the cops you’ve called arrive despite the fact the apparent perp has begun to run from you?
**
Keeping an eye on a suspicious looking person until the cops arrive is not “starting shit.” **

And all the evidence we have at this time indicates that what Zimmerman bailed himself out from with his gun was a pummeling in the face and head by a guy who by that time he had every reason to think was a criminal.

What ‘description’ might that be? :rolleyes:

I don’t know about “every reason” to think Martin was a criminal? Why is that? His skin color?

But here’s the problem: Zimmerman wasn’t just “keeping an eye” on Martin.

He is not in the situation because he was “just keeping an eye” on Martin.

We’ll let me tell you what I would have done:

I see someone who i don’t recognize in the complex…i come up to him immediately (rather than stalking him for about 10 minutes).

Me: Hey, how are you? Didn’t mean to scare you–I am part of neighborhood watch. My name is ____. I was patrolling the neighborhood. I didn’t recognize you. Can I help you? Was there somewhere you were going? Can I help you find it?

Martin: Naw, I was just going to my place at such and such.

Me: (Realizing that he really is staying here). Ok then. It’s raining out, can I offer you a ride? Or have a good night or ask him about the basketball game that was playing that night.

Martin: No thank you or no problem.

See how this works?

Everyone goes home, no damned problems.

Yes, black people can be talked to.

Yes, they can respond to courtesy.

Try it one day–it just might work.

[Shodan]

@you_with_the_face

Your actual opinions don’t matter to Shodan. Just like mine don’t.

Not unless they are backed up with some kind of evidence.

Your “opinions” in the Duke case have been shown to be wrong. You are unable to provide a cite for anyone in this thread saying what you claimed they said. And yet you feel the need to warn us of how we might embarrassed, and accuse me of projection.

If it doesn’t embarrass you to be proven wrong, why would you think anyone else would be less bare-faced?

[QUOTE=betenoire39]
I see someone who i don’t recognize in the complex…i come up to him immediately (rather than stalking him for about 10 minutes).

Me: Hey, how are you? Didn’t mean to scare you–I am part of neighborhood watch. My name is ____. I was patrolling the neighborhood. I didn’t recognize you. Can I help you? Was there somewhere you were going? Can I help you find it?
[/QUOTE]
Then Martin punches you in the face, knocks you down, and begins bashing your head on the ground.

And by golly, he has every right in the world to do so. How dare you attack him so savagely? You put him in fear of his life.

Regards,
Shodan

[Gray_Ghost]

@Bricker

…What he says in the SYG hearing may well be admissible at the trial, for impeachment purposes if he contradicts himself, but it would not be admissible on its own.

In other words, if his trial testimony is inconsistent with his hearing testimony, he can be impeached at trial by pointing out that he said something different at the hearing. But the prosecution cannot, at trial, read his hearing testimony into the record…

Weird, picayune legal question, but why can’t it be admissible on its own, Bricker? It seems like it would be relevant evidence. It’s an admission by a party opponent, (isn’t it?) so it gets past a hearsay objection. Why can’t the whole thing come in and not just for impeachment purposes? Is it a peculiarity of this specific type of hearing?

FWIW, I agree with you that 2nd degree murder can’t be supported by the evidence we’ve been shown so far. To me, it looks like hilarious overcharging, though manslaughter wouldn’t be. Probably not so funny for Z though.

Cynically, I think that how Z does at this hearing will depend on the State of Florida’s opinion of which option leads to less rioting: find Z justified at this hearing, and avoid the prolonged publicity of a trial—the rip the band-aid off theory—or find that Z didn’t meet his burden and take the chance that he’s found not guilty at trial.

[betenoire39]

@Shodan

**Then Martin punches you in the face, knocks you down, and begins bashing your head on the ground.

And by golly, he has every right in the world to do so. How dare you attack him so savagely? You put him in fear of his life.
**
Regards,
Shodan

Martin wouldn’t have punched me in the face.

Zimmerman was aggressive. He followed Martin for a very long time. Martin hid from him. Zimmerman followed him. Then as relayed by DeeDee, Zimmerman verbally confronted him.

Notice in my scenario, Martin doesn’t run or hide or have a reason to: because I GAVE HIM NONE.

**I would not have spooked him and set up the scenario for that to happen. **

He would have NO REASON to punch me. This is not some vicious animal that some people :rolleyes: paint him to be.

Yes, believe it or not, I am around black males a lot. They are people too, and yes, they respond to courtesy.

Believe it or not, they are capable of getting scared, regardless of whatever you’ve seen on the movies or on TV or was passed down to you over the years.

And you don’t think some white people or anyone else wouldn’t have responded the way Martin did?

I have heard many people (of different races–yes, even white people) say that if they were in Martin’s position, Zimmerman would have been sent to the ER or worse.