I daren’t ask why that’s lucky.
Indeed.
Zimmerman parked at the clubhouse correct? How would he see a sign from there without exiting the vehicle?
It’s lucky because I knew immediately that my famously tender sensibilities were safe from the hurt and despair that would have ensued if he had been talking about me.
What needs an explanation is your fascination with street signs and the relevance to the fight.
I believe Zimmerman said he got out of his truck to find either a street sign, or a house number, so he could tell the police exactly where he was so they could meet.
I believe someone upthread (not necessarily PatriotX) seemed to be arguing that, if Zimmerman said “street sign” when he meant “house number”, this means that he is guilty of second-degree murder.
Regards,
Shodan
He meant street sign because he didn’t know the name of the street. He clearly doesn’t know the name of the street from the phone call. The fact that he looked for a street sign as he exited the vehicle to chase after Martin has no bearing on anything. If this is an attempt to call him a liar it’s just stupid. He’s already stated he was chasing after Martin. This is why he left the truck. He’s never claimed he left the truck to look for a street sign and as an afterthought ran after Martin. The fact that he mentions this on a walkthrough is extraneous detail.
This appears to be an argument started a year ago that revolved around Zimmerman’s walk through statement. He said he got out of the truck “to” look at a street sign instead of saying he got out of the truck “and” looked for a street sign. The implication is that he lied about why he got out of the truck and thus liar liar pants on fire he’s guilty of murder. Zimmerman is a terrible speaker. He struggled all through the phone call giving directions. Instead of telling the police to drive through the gate and follow the road he tells them to turn left, then backs up and says not to turn left but go straight and turn left. If mis-speaking is a crime then the current Vice President would be in jail for multiple life sentences. Zimmerman is not Vice President material.
Iirc, Z’s account is that he parked there and initiated the call. However, his account is that he then drove further to the middle of the block on Twin Trees closer to the infamous “cut-through” sidewalk.
If he had been where you’re trying to place him, he would have been on his own street already and known the street name.
I am surprised you don’t know these gross and basic facts.
I can explain again, but I don’t see why it would be any different this time around. As a reminder, it is not relevant to the fight. It speaks to the nature of the tale GZ tells.
I have quite explicitly said that I don’t think he meant to say house number. We had this exact discussion previously. You suggested that he may have meant house number instead of street sign. I provided quotes from GZ which ruled out that possibility. GZ said street sign and meant street sign.
Further, I haven’t assigned any significance to GZ implausible rationalization for exiting his vehicle other than to say that the tale shows that GZ is fabricating at least some of his tale. I have explicitly stated that this fabrication is not evidence of GZ committing murder. It is, however, evidence that GZ is not a reliable witness. He’s covering up something. But I don’t trust GZ’s ability to assess whether or not that something warrants covering up. GZ may have been covering up something which would not indicate his guilt, but which he thought would have gotten him into some other trouble or which was just plain old embarrassing. IDK. I don’t have enough info to tell.
But w/e. I can only do so much. After speaking plainly, it’s out of my hands, guys.
Direct quotes from GZ fail to convince you. Not sure what can be done about that.
:shrug:
So you believe Zimmerman is attempting to claim he got out of his vehicle to look for a street sign and the chase was an afterthought. You think this will be presented by the defense in court? To what end exactly?
He started on his street (where he first saw Martin) and drove to the street he didn’t know the name off and could not name while on the phone.
People want to treat Zimmerman’s word as if it’s immpeccable gospel.
But if you do this, you can’t go around saying what Zimmerman REALLY meant. You accept what he says regarding the basic facts of the case or you throw all of his testimony out.
For the billionth time, here is what Zimmerman says:
Can we please stop with the very tired “He was really looking for a house number” stuff? That doesn’t make any sense since you wouldn’t look for a house number on a back alley anyway, but it especially doesn’t make any sense since Zimmerman is pretty damn clear about what he was looking for in his statement.
He gets out of the car to find a street sign so he can supposedly relay his location to the dispatcher. Except that he doesn’t do this at all. He cuts off phone contact (after telling the dispatcher to have the cops phone him) and then supposedly walks to the end of the block before he realizes he’s supposed to be looking for a street sign.
What kind of wiley street sign was this? And why does he never once tell the dispatcher anything like, “Hold on. I’m trying to find out what street I’m on.”
But you do know what he manages to tell the dispatcher when asked whether he is in pursuit of the running boy, right?
Funny that his statement doesn’t recall this part of the conversation.
I am not claiming that. If I were to guess something it would be quite different from that.
I said we don’t have enough info to know.
But if anything, imho, it seems more likely that GZ decided to get out to keep after TM and the bit about the street sign was the after thought–something he thought of after he decided he didn’t want to say why he got out of the vehicle or some other action or actions which he thinks of as being tied to his reason for exiting. I am not aware of enough evidence to say for certain/
But, as I pointed out already, it’s hard to say why he thinks he needed to make up a reason for getting out of his vehicle. And I don’t see reason to trust in GZ’s ability to decide what should be covered up and what doesn’t need it. As such, I am not confident that GZ is covering up incriminating evidence. He might have chosen to cover up something else which he didn’t want to tell the police. Maybe he has a reason which embarrassed him. I don’t know.
I am inclined to agree with you that GZ got out to give chase. But GZ tells us something different. Something which is non-sensical.
no, that’s simply not true. I don’t give a fuck about him and most of the people explaining the case have said basically the same thing.
You’re confusing 2 arguments. His reason for getting out of his car and the reason he walked to the end of the top of the sidewalk T. He clearly and without any ambiguity got out of the car to follow Martin. His phone record establishes this. Yes, during the video walk through he says the dispatcher asked for an address. What they ask for is confirmation of his directions so that’s fairly accurate description of the conversation. He describes where he’s parked and that Martin comes back to his car. In the video he says Martin has something in his hands (which would be the ice tea) and on the phone call he says Martin has his hand in his waste band. He then says Martin is running and 16 seconds later the Dispatcher asks him if he’s running so Zimmerman is already out of the truck and chasing after Martin.
In the video he says he “I thought to get out and look for a street sign” (not that he got out to look for a street sign). This was all in the context of him explaining that he didn’t know the name of the street. He specifically talks about it in the video. He then says he gets out of the car and starts walking.
"so I got out of my car and started walking (officer stops and asks him to get out)
… " so I was on the phoning with non-emergency and I started walking… down this way… and because I didn’t see a street sign here but i knew if I went straight through that is Retreat View Circle and I could give him an address because he said just give me the address of the house you’re in front of, and there no address because these are the backs of the houses.
He then goes on to repeat his desire to get an address number as he’s walking toward Retreat View Circle which is the street he lives on and knows the name of.
So prior to him exiting the vehicle he is thinking in terms of getting an exact address either from the street he’s on or the street he knows the name of. His explanation of what he was thinking about (street name and address) is consistent with his attempt to direct the police to his location. It’s color commentary to the phone call.
Now I don’t know how good your memory is but can you remember what you said and was thinking in relation to any post you made in the SDMB in the last 2 days? What Zimmerman remembered in the video is pretty consistent to the phone call. It’s probably better than most people can do. There is nothing in it that leaps out as a definitive lie.
If there was something… anything that stood out as an inaccuracy then the discussion would be quite different. But we have witnesses who heard the running, a phone call explaining what he’s doing and where he’s parked, a phone call where Martin said what he was doing and where he was along the way. 2 accounts of what was said between the 2 of them which both have Martin starting the confrontation, physical evidence of the assault, audio evidence of the assault with the 911 call, witnesses who heard and saw the fight between 2 people, photographic evidence of the assault, and wound patterns of the shot fired.
All of this is consistent with Zimmerman’s account. It’s not that his word is gospel, it’s that the apostles of evidence write the same account.
see my post above. His street sign comment is made as a pre-thought to the chase. While he’s in the car he’s trying (poorly in my opinion) to give directions. He’s not the best multi-tasker.
B
If you take the one sentence by itself it sounds like he is making this his reason. If you back up in the video then it is consistent with his phone call as is his reason for walking to the other end of the sidewalk. I can’t see where anything can be made of this in court. It would be immediately challenged and put to rest.
There is no doubt in my mind that he’s still looking around for Martin but it appears that he heeded the advice of the Dispatcher. He kept to the sidewalk he started on barring evidence that he was somewhere else. Strategically this gives him a view of the back of the houses as well as the police as they approach.
Bricker has made a moral argument for Zimmerman to stay in the car. Given that Martin comes back and circles Z’s truck one can conclude he is capable of confrontation. The truck poses little safety value unless it’s running. What I don’t agree with is the idea that Zimmerman is morally bound to stay in the truck (with or without a gun) as long as he keeps his distance.
IMO Martin was a teenager of less-than-stellar moral fiber. Based on the pictures he made of himself and his recent failings that got him expelled he was a bit of a bad boy. He was certainly no Charles Manson but he wasn’t Disney Movie material either. His previous approach of Zimmerman showed some intent to confront. At the age of 17 he lacked the full capacity of reason and I think he took offense at being challenged for being in the neighborhood. I’ve been in his shoes and it’s insulting.
Bricker, if you ever coach little league tball or peewee football , that should be the name of the team.
Oh and make sure to pay Magiver royalties, or make him you assistant.
Yes, I think that’s what probably happened – Zimmerman said something insulting to Martin and Martin, offended, punched him.
But I don’t think Martin knew that Zimmerman had a gun. Zimmerman knew he had a gun. And Zimmerman was an adult. For those reasons, even though he had a perfect LEGAL right to exit the truck and say something insulting to Martin, he should not have. He knew, or should have known, he was baiting an attack, an attack he was equipped to respond to with deadly force.
Not to try to be a mind reader, but it would not shock me to learn that Zimmerman wanted something like that to happen – to teach the “punk”, genus always-get-away, a lesson. That’s truly speculation, though, and it’s not relevant to my determination of moral responsibility.
Indeed – full kudos for the turn of phrase.
On what evidence do you base your belief that Zimmerman “probably” insulted Martin?
Because the only evidence we have is Dee Dee’s account, and she does not describe anything of the sort.
Regards,
Shodan
I base it on inference – specifically, the knowledge that while Martin may have been a bit of a troublemaker, nothing in his past suggests any propensity to simply lash out in attack for no reason at all. The scenario I imagine fits all the pieces – we know Zimmerman was not feeling kindly disposed towards Martin; we know Zimmerman believed Martin to be a potential criminal. It makes perfect sense to imagine that Zimmerman did not keep those feelings hidden when he spoke to Martin.
Of course, this is a guess – completely inadmissible in any kind of a trial. But in terms of a common sense view of what happened when the two came face to face, it seems right. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn something else happened; it wouldn’t surprise me to learn my guess was correct.