Cases have been dismissed for less than this, but apparently Florida is a bit different.
And then lost sight of the person, and ended up in a fight with him minutes later on the same spot. That requires Martin coming to Zimmerman.
He thought he was a suspicious person and notified police of that, sure.
And a broken nose and black eyes.
Short, fat guys aren’t legendary for their combat prowess.
You list this as indisputable? Witness 45 claims with “110%” certainty that Zimmerman was yelling for help. “John” also claims that it was Zimmerman.
You left out plenty: other witness statements, the autopsy report, the physical crime scene, the NEN call recording & transcript, and the voice stress test, for a start.
They’d have an autopsy report showing Martin with bruised knuckles, and photos from the scene and after showing Zimmerman’s broken nose. That’s evidence that Martin “touched” Zimmerman.
What evidence is there that Martin left his house to confront Zimmerman?
But let’s go with this. So you assume that if Martin left his house to confront Zimmerman, this means he would have done so with violent, aggressive intent. Is this right?
We know Zimmerman left his truck to chase after Martin and “see where he went”. Why do you not see this action as evidence of violent, aggressive intent, but when we’re talking about Martin, everything changes?
Witnesses saw two people, one person sitting on another, beating him up. Do you recognize that as an indisputable fact?
Zimmerman’s back was wet and had grass stains. Martin’s wasn’t. Who do you think was sitting on whom?
I only think he’s not guilty, which isn’t the same thing. But, going ahead anyway:
- Zimmerman had a broken nose and wounds to his head.
- Martin had only bruised knuckles.
- Witnesses report Martin atop Zimmerman. The grass stains on Zimmerman’s back and Martin’s knees support this as well.
- Witnesses report Zimmerman calling out for help.
That all supports a claim of Zimmerman under attack from Martin, for a start.
Sorry about the double post. Martin’s pant knees were grass stained, indicating that he was straddling Zimmernan.
To be perfectly technical, the only thing that tells us is that Zimmerman was losing a fight … not who started it.
I have a cut on my finger right now. Is it inarguable that I incurred this cut by punching Zimmerman in the face? No.
A photo of Zimmerman does not establish that he had a broken nose. Photos taken that same night show a nose that looked perfectly fine. He was never diagnosed with a broken nose by a qualified specialist, and at any rate, unless he testifies that Martin caused this alleged broken nose, the jury will have no reason to think it was inflicted by anyone other than his clumsy self.
Also, Martin’s phone and Zimmerman’s flashlight were found right at the T, north of where the shooting occured. This is where Zimmerman ended his phone call, and reported losing sight of Martin. Given the elapsed time, this suggests Zimmerman staying at the top of the T, and Martin, having run away, returning there.
As said, I think he’s not guilty, because without evidence that he started the fight, reasonable doubt demands it.
Also, are you ever going to explain your theory of the crime? You seem dead-set against it, odd for someone so convinced of Zimmerman’s guilt.
According to Florida laws, it doesn’t matter who started a fight, if the person has reasonable fear of death or grave bodily injury, the shooting is justified.
No, but you weren’t discovered next to someone who’d been punched in the face, nor did witnesses see you atop of him, fighting.
It looks exactly like a broken nose to me. The medical report from the next day includes “nasal bones, closed fracture” as a diagnosis, as well as “open wound of scalp”.
Your opinion about the legal process is worth about as much as it usually is.
As I said, there is evidence to show that Martin attacked Zimmerman, and none to show that Zimmerman attacked Martin. Your notion that Zimmerman’s attorneys cannot put forward a defense without Zimmerman testifying is laughably wrong.
The injuries to both parties tend to demonstrate that Martin acted violently and aggressively. They also demonstrate that Zimmerman did not. If Martin hadn’t attacked Zimmerman, it would not be reasonable to interpret Martin’s coming back from a place of safety as an aggressive act. But Martin did attack Zimmerman. Therefore it is natural, and almost inevitable, to interpret his actions differently.
IOW the person who attacks the other is the one whose actions can be interpreted as the aggressive one. Since there is no evidence of Zimmerman’s aggression, and there is evidence of Martin’s, that is the explanation that makes sense.
Regards,
Shodan
He never was diagnosed with a broken nose. He was seen breathing out of his nose on the interrogation tape and whatever swelling he might have had magically disppeared when the cops took his photo at the station.
He had a 1/4" abrasion on one of his fingers. So “knuckles” my ass. At any given moment, half of humanity is probably walking with much worse due to paper cut type incidents. Just like Zimmerman’s nicks, he could has sustained this injury in the course of rolling on the ground.
I need to see cites about these stains. Last time I read the forensic reports, there was nothing in there about grass stains.
The only witness (emphasis on the singluar) who said this–“John”–has now said he doesn’t know who was yelling for help. The only thing that is inarguable is that he’s retracted his earlier statements and is pretty much useless to the defense now.
The bullet in Martin’s chest that came from Zimmerman’s gun is plenty of evidence of that.
Explain then how they will introduce evidence that Martin confronted Zimmerman, punched him, pounded his head into the ground, smothered him, and then threated him…if Zimmerman doesn’t take the stand?
If I’m so wrong about this, then you should be easily be able to propose a mechanism by which O’Mara can argue these claims without the benefit of the only witness making them.
Back on this horseshit again? I really, really hope the prosecution makes an allegation as stupid as this one.
Regards,
Shodan
Dude, I’ve laid out what I think happened a number of times in this thread, and I don’t feel like running around that mulberry bush again.
Here’s the nutshell.
Zimmerman sees Martin.
Martin sees Zimmerman.
Martin runs behind the houses.
Zimmerman gets out of his car to chase Martin.
They lose sight of each other - maybe Martin’s hiding, maybe he’s just hanging out behind the houses because he thought he lost Zimmerman.
They find each other in the dark.
A fight ensues.
Zimmerman pisses his pants and shoots Martin.
Zimmerman tells the police what a hero he is.
The conjecture that I throw in the middle of it all is that I wouldn’t doubt it if Zimmerman tried to detain Martin. He was on official crime-stopping duty after all.
The distance between the point of confrontation and Martin’s house. How, in all the pages of discussion, can you not understand this?
Yes, that is correct. Martin, a person who works out and likes to fight went out of his way to confront someone who was suspicious of. He didn’t call the police, he went back to confront him.
At no time was Zimmerman in close pursuit of Martin. Martin is already out of sight when Zimmerman breaks off running. This is confirmed by Martin. They’ve lost sight of each other. The difference is that Zimmerman stays on the sidewalk that leads to his truck. If he intended a confrontation he would have turned right and gone in the last known direction of Martin. If he intended to harm Martin he wouldn’t have called the police in the first place. If he intended to harm Martin we would have heard threats made during the phone call Dee Dee heard but Zimmerman was unaware of.
Martin’s behavior was suspicious to Zimmerman. He knew the person who lived at the home and property that Martin was trespassing on. He has a right to be suspicious and acted correctly by calling the police. Martin, whether he was looking for a house to break into or not, would see Zimmerman’s actions as suspicious. He did the wrong thing. Instead of walking into his father’s house (remember he lost sight of Zimmerman at this point) he goes back to the last known location. Martin had a phone in his hand and could have called the police. They would have put 2 and 2 together and explained to him the situation. Instead he goes out of his way to confront Zimmerman and then pummels him relentlessly using the skills of his hobby.
Yes, he was diagnosed with a broken nose. You can breathe through a broken nose.
It’s evidence of throwing a punch.
Here’s the photo of Martin’s pants knee. It was from a batch of 80 photos released by the prosecution on May 23.
Do you need a cite for Zimmerman’s stains, as well? That’s been out a lot longer.
Witness 45 claimed that the voice was Zimmerman’s.
Witness 6 claims that Martin was atop Zimmerman, though it’s true that he no longer claims to be sure who was crying out.
Even if this supposition is true, why does mean that Martin beat up Zimmerman? What should make us view Martin’s behavior as more suspicious than the armed man who exited his truck in the rain to chase after a pedestrian walking home from the 7/11?