You don’t have freedom of speech in a courtroom.
See, Honesty? It is a prejudicial term. It’s convinced Condescending Robot that Zimmerman was:
- Delusional
- Lying or mistaken about Martin’s behavior
- Lying or mistaken about being in reasonable fear of losing his life or suffering great bodily harm from Martin
All that, with no evidence to support any of it. That’s a powerful term, as I’m sure you’ll agree.
So, what level of threat should he have perceived when Martin was punching him and bashing his head against the ground, whilst pinning him down? That’s when the level of threat matters, not earlier. Also, it doesn’t matter whether he was, in fact, reasonable when he made the determination - just whether a reasonable person could have made the same determination. Which, of course, they could have, in this case.
Why should I believe that Martin was doing any of those things when the source is a man who went around telling people that he held a rank he gave himself in an organization that doesn’t exist? This is why it’s relevant.
Hasn’t this been well covered? You should believe it, or at least consider it reasonable, because Zimmerman’s face and head were wounded, his back wet and grass stained, while Martin had only a scrape on his knuckle and grass stains on his knees. And because a witness saw Martin atop Zimmerman, fighting.
For the umpteenth time, Zimmerman’s mouth isn’t the only source of evidence; on the contrary, it’s probably the worst source. Please face this reality.
ETA: Also, disbelieving the defendant isn’t sufficient for conviction unless it’s based on evidence. Disbelieving Zimmerman’s story because he’s delusional or what have you doesn’t permit the jury to assume that the opposite of his statements must have occurred.
Not directing this at you necessarily,
This claim just came up on another message board and a poster posted pics of;
Z’s jacket,
Z’s shirt,
Z’s pants
Z’s shoe heels,
there wasn’t a single grass stain to be seen, so anyone want to post a link that shows these “grass stains”?
I can’t wait 'til we get to the forensic evidence in this case!
“No, I can’t tell you how those grass stains came to be on Mr. Martin’s pants”,
“No, I can’t tell you when those grass stains came to be on Mr. Martin’s pants”
Lots of folks gonna be real stunned to learn that “consistent with” is the highest level of scientific certainty that most physical evidence can ever rise to.
Think arguing the law was an exercise in frustration?!
CMC fnord!
It’s easy to assert that there’s all sorts of evidence outside of known delusional liar Zimmerman’s testimony when you just make up what that evidence is. Do you expect people to stop doing that? It’s been sixteen months so far and no end in sight.
While unfortunate that it took so long, the fact that you arrived at all is to be lauded. Congratulations.
Come now, I’m sure you know perfectly well that the perception C. Robot holds was not formed on the basis of the term. Be fair.
Assuming those things are true. The fact that some people saw them on the ground, struggling, does not prove that he was “pinned” “punched” and having his head “bashed against the ground”. (Again, I’m not 100% up to date, but to my knowledge no witnesses have reported seeing any of those things. Just two guys on the ground struggling, the smaller on top of the larger. Pretty limited.)
Huh?
+1
lightly, and could have happened any number of ways, as I earlier noted.
Hardly proof of punching and bashing.
Again, unless some other information has come to light, this is incorrect and the incorrectness very definitely makes a difference. He had some grass clinging to his backside. One only gets grass* stains* if one comes into contact with the grass so forcefully that the blades of grass are broken and torn, releasing the green pigmented chlorophyll that causes the stain. The fact that there was only some blades of grass, and NOT grass stains, actually weakens the story that he was being pinned, beaten and bashed. It’s hard to imagine that much violence without tearing up a little grass juice.
Disagree. Take everything he said away, as I suggested earlier. Including the 911 call he made, because he could have been distorting and spinning information in it. Confine yourself to everything else: Zimmerman is mute. Then tell me how crystal clear it all is.
What would the “opposite” be? Doesn’t matter, I could explain everything without supporting Zimmerman, and that’s what I would expect the prosecution to do.
But unless his defense counsel is/are damned fools without a clue, especially about how to pick jurors, since that’s kinda the whole ball game in this thing, he’ll be acquitted. But one can hope that he is suffering and suffers a great deal more by having to go through it, if nothing else.
(Yes, I’m with the prosecution, in case anyone didn’t know: I’m calling it 2nd degree, and I absolutely believe that one way or another, he scared the shit out of that kid, which triggered a series of events leading to his being thrilled to have an excuse to pull out his gun and play lawman. I also firmly believe that he regrets the hell out of it now, and maybe even regretted it as soon as he did it. But he was foolish and dangerous and looking for trouble, and he found it. Also, I dont’ think he’s a racist looking to off a black person, but I do think he made certain assumptions that he would not have if Martin were white or Asian or perhaps even hispanic.)
Yeah, it is kind of amazing that people continue to spin everything so much.
I just looked at the original police report (grass stains) and I would like to add that my “LIAR! LIAR LIAR!” alarm goes off when I read that Zimmerman was telling the medical peeps that he was yelling for help. I doubt they asked, and it’s Bust The Liar 101 that liars talk to much and tend to supply too much information. Although it’s understandable. If it was Martin yelling for help (and it was, absolutely…listen to it… shiver), and I were Zimmerman, I’d probably do the same. Make sure his lie gets in there first.
Poor George. Poor Trayvon. Sigh…
If convicted maybe Zimmerman should be sentenced to reading this thread in it’s entirety. Learned counselors, would this constitute cruel and unusual punishment?
So you know it was, absolutely, Martin screaming based on what, exactly? There’s no actual evidence that it was him, and no evidence he was in a position where he would be expected to be screaming for help. So, who’s distorting and spinning the facts now?
Also, have you conceded that the prosecution have to specifically disprove self defence if they are to prove Zimmerman guilty of anything yet?
Every single thing about the screams tells me it was Trayvon Martin, And absolutely nothing about it suggests that it might have been George Zimmerman. There is nothing remotely believable about Zimmerman being punched, having his head bashed into the ground, reaching for his gun and pulling it out, pointing it at Martin and pulling the trigger, all while screaming virtually non-stop. Really? His head being bashed and punched so badly that his only chance to stay alive is to kill this boy, but never quite so badly that his screaming is interrupted? And the quality in the voice is chilling, it sounds exactly like a kid looking at his death and absolutely desperate to get help to stop it, which is what I am certain he was doing. I think Zimmerman Had his gun out already, before they went down to the ground, and that is why they went down: Martin was trying to stop him from using it.
Far too many people, but none of them are me. In this particular instance my remark was parenthetical, following the words “IF it was Martin screaming…” Most proficient readers of English understand this to mean that the parenthetical remark is my opinion.
.
Oh, and While everyone debates what likely happened, I think it’s interesting that no one seems to question for a moment The likelihood that Zimmermans head wound proves Zimmermans story about having his head bashed into the ground: his head was on the grass. And from the description not even at the edge of the grass where the sprinklers might be found. How did the soft wet ground cause his head to be cut and bleeding?
Which leads me to another issue I have always had, that being Zimmermans description of exactly who was where and when, When compared with the position that Trayvon’s body was in when the police saw it. But of course I realize all of that is far too nuanced to bother thinking about too much…
Martin was still alive when the police arrived, they didn’t find his body. Your confidence in your pronouncements is astounding, given your lack of knowledge of either the law or the facts of the case. For example, none of your arguments give you any reason to believe it was Martin screaming. It may have been, but you need actual evidence of that, and all you have is unfounded speculation.
Since we have evidence that Zimmerman was in fear for his life, and none that Martin was, it’s beyond foolish to say that proves Martin was screaming.
Great law blog,lots of great analysis and comment about this case: Frederick leatherman, former law professor, and former felony criminal defense attorney in state and federal courts specializing in death penalty defense, forensics, and complex litigation
LOVE this one: Bandar Slot Indonesia Terpercaya
:rolleyes:
We have evidence. The very dangerous leap you continue to make is to to assert that we have evidence OF this or that, As though the evidence that we have is conclusive proof of only one possible thing. Sometimes evidence is conclusive proof of only one thing, but certainly not in this case.
You say we have evidence that Zimmerman was in fear for his life. I cannot think of one bit of evidence which even suggests such a thing to me, especially in the context of the whole, much less any evidence which proves it to the exclusion of any other possibility. The only evidence that I can think of for George Zimmerman fearing for his life is George Zimmerman’s claim that it is so. Having watched the reenactment video, along with doing a great deal of reading this evening to catch up, I now know how much lying George Zimmerman has done. The man is a liar, his story is ridiculous, So anything he says can only be taken with a cup or two of salt.
Any other evidence you point to and claim as proof that George Zimmerman feared for his life fails in my eyes and the eyes of many others. To the extent that we have evidence of an altercation between the men, that is not evidence of George Zimmerman fearing for his life, unless you believe that all fights leave all participants in fear for their lives. I don’t.
I think it would be wise for you to temper your assertions about what we have evidence for and of, and instead present your arguments as: there is this fact (i.e. Zimmerman has a wound on his head) which I believe is strong evidence in support of [the thing you think the fact proves].
Like so: We have audio recordings from 911 In which we hear a human being screaming desperately in the background for help. Then we hear a shot. That scream is cut off abruptly when the shot is heard. And of course, Trayvon Martin is dead, by George Zimmerman’s hand. I view this as excellent evidence proving that Trayvon Martin was in terror for his life, and rightly so, and that it is his voice silenced by a bullet through his lungs. And I believe that because it is logical. George Zimmerman screaming continuously for help while he “aims” - Zimmerman’s own word - then shoots Martin in the chest is not logical, or believable.
“Grass stains” = blades of grass, torn free. My mistake, that was sloppy.
Which set of pictures? If it’s from the police station, there’s no reason to expect the grass to still be there. If it’s from the scene, I haven’t seen any pictures that show Zimmerman’s back.
I’m basing this claim on the police report. Officer Timothy Smith, who arrived first after the shooting, writes:
Any reason to think Smith was lying or mistaken? If so, I haven’t heard it.
That’s fine for the defense, all they need is a reasonable doubt, not certainty.
Which of these:
- Zimmerman’s face and head were wounded
- His back was wet and “covered with grass”
- Martin had a scrape on his knuckle
- Martin was seen atop Zimmerman, fighting with him
Is made up, exactly?
I can’t deny that I find it very satisfying to learn that a former law professor specializing in forensics thinks just like I do…
Pretty much what I said a year ago: