Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread

[DragonAsh]

@Steophan

You are correct, in a very technical way. It’s a necessary inference drawn from two pieces of evidence, namely Deedee’s statement that Martin claimed he was by his house, and witness statements that saw the fight in a place between where Zimmerman made his call and the house.

One could also infer it from the evidence from both Deedee’s statement and the NEN call that both parties lost sight of each other, and Zimmerman stopped following Martin.

Martin could have gone home if he chose. He chose not to, and to return to Zimmerman.

Martin could have gone home if he chose to. He chose not to - you’re correct up to that point. But there is zero evidence to suggest he ‘returned’ or ‘went back’… in fact, there’s no evidene he went anywhere at all; the fight and his body was pretty much right where Zimmerman last saw him; for all we know he just hid between one of the buildings waiting for Zimmerman to leave the area, only for Zimmerman to approach him after hanging up from NEN? Perhaps Martin didn’t want to go home and let the crazy stalker guy following him the last quarter of a mile know where he lived?

Zimmerman could have gone back to his truck if he chose. He chose not to. Instead, he continued wandering the area searching for Martin. There -is- plenty of evidence for this, because that’s the only reason he’d have for not going back to his truck.

@Magiver

Dee Dee states that Martin tells her he is at his house AND has lost sight of Zimmerman. Unless you have evidence that Zimmerman grabbed him and dragged him back to the location of the fight without making any noise mind you then Martin HAS to go back to where Zimmerman is.

The Dee Dee phone call suggests Martin is ‘near’ his house; ‘near’ could be damn near anything depending on context. I live ‘near’ a train station, but it’s a seven minute walk. My office desk is ‘near’ the printer, it’s on the desk next to me. Since Team Zimmerman loves to point out how ‘close’ Martin’s house was to the T and how quickly Martin could get there, it makes sense to suggest that ‘near’ would include being in any area around the T.

[Steophan]

@DragonAsh

There -is- plenty of evidence for this, because that’s the only reason he’d have for not going back to his truck.

And the only reason Martin didn’t go home is because he was looking for Zimmerman.

Those two statements are equally true, and equally supported by the evidence. There’s a difference, of course. If there’s any doubt, the benefit of it goes to Zimmerman.

[DragonAsh]

@Steophan

And the only reason Martin didn’t go home is because he was looking for Zimmerman.

And you know this because…? Your evidence is…?

It’s at least just as likely Martin didn’t go home because he didn’t want the crazy stalker guy to know where he lived.

[Shodan]

@DragonAsh

It’s at least just as likely Martin didn’t go home because he didn’t want the crazy stalker guy to know where he lived.

No it isn’t - he told Dee Dee that he and Zimmerman had lost sight of each other. Therefore, Zimmerman could not have seen where Martin lived.

Regards,
Shodan

[DragonAsh]

@Shodan

No it isn’t - he told Dee Dee that he and Zimmerman had lost sight of each other. Therefore, Zimmerman could not have seen where Martin lived.

Do you think Martin knew where Zimmerman was?

Zimmerman didn’t want to give his address out over the phone for the very same reason - he didn’t know where Martin was.

[Shodan]

@DragonAsh

Do you think Martin knew where Zimmerman was?

He told Dee Dee that he did not.

Zimmerman didn’t want to give his address out over the phone for the very same reason - he didn’t know where Martin was.

And therefore what I said earlier is correct - Zimmerman and Martin had lost sight of each other, and therefore Zimmerman could not have seen where Martin lived.

Regards,
Shodan

[Magiver]

@DragonAsh

The Dee Dee phone call suggests Martin is ‘near’ his house; ‘near’ could be damn near anything depending on context. I live ‘near’ a train station, but it’s a seven minute walk. My office desk is ‘near’ the printer, it’s on the desk next to me. Since Team Zimmerman loves to point out how ‘close’ Martin’s house was to the T and how quickly Martin could get there, it makes sense to suggest that ‘near’ would include being in any area around the T.

no it doesn’t suggest he’s “near” anything. He makes the statement after saying he doesn’t have to run home. So you put the 2 statements together, he doesn’t have to run (home) because he’s already there. When you combine this information with the statements from both him and Zimmerman that they’ve lost sight of each other then that places them far enough away so that they cannot see or hear each other. Zimmerman is making no attempt to lower his phone on the phone so that adds to the distance.

Martin is where he says he is based on the evidence.

[PatriotX]

@Shodan

He told Dee Dee that he did not.And therefore what I said earlier is correct - Zimmerman and Martin had lost sight of each other, and therefore Zimmerman could not have seen where Martin lived.
Regards,
Shodan

TM knew that GZ had lost sight of TM because…?

[DragonAsh]

@Shodan

He told Dee Dee that he did not.And therefore what I said earlier is correct - Zimmerman and Martin had lost sight of each other, and therefore Zimmerman could not have seen where Martin lived.

Zimmerman could not have seen where Martin lived…but Martin couldn’t know that. Jesus, are you being obtuse on purpose?

[Magiver]

@DragonAsh

Do you think Martin knew where Zimmerman was?

Zimmerman didn’t want to give his address out over the phone for the very same reason - he didn’t know where Martin was.

Martin knows where Zimmerman’s truck is and that is the direction he’s heading, for the second time.

[PatriotX]

@Magiver

Martin knows where Zimmerman’s truck is and that is the direction he’s heading, for the second time.

TM knew which direction GZ was heading? So TM didn’t lose sight of GZ?

[Richard_Parker]

This court reporter is bad at his/her job. This witness is not talking that quickly or unclearly as witnesses go.

[DragonAsh]

@Richard_Parker

This court reporter is bad at his/her job. This witness is not talking that quickly or unclearly as witnesses go.

I dunno - I’m only getting the general gist of what she’s saying; definitely not getting every single word the first time. Maybe the acoustics are different in the court room (heck maybe we have -better- audio from the mic than the court reporter gets sitting in the actual court room?) Either way - since I surmise that the court reporter would get fired for only getting the ‘gist’ of what she said, I sympathize; there’s no way I’m catching every single word…

[Shodan]

@PatriotX

TM knew that GZ had lost sight of TM because…?

Because he told Dee Dee that he had lost him. I.e. they were out of visual contact with each other. And because, in order to go looking for Zimmerman, Martin had to leave the immediate vicinity of his father’s house, and double back to find Zimmerman. And since Martin doubled back and went looking for Zimmerman, this is evidence that he was not afraid of Zimmerman, as has been pointed out before.
[QUOTE=DragonAsh]
Jesus, are you being obtuse on purpose?
[/QUOTE]
No, I am not. I get the feeling some in this thread are being obtuse, but I am not so sure it is voluntary.

Regards,
Shodan

[PatriotX]

@Shodan

Because he told Dee Dee that he had lost him. I.e. they were out of visual contact with each other.

TM knew that GZ had lost sight of TM because TM had lost sight of GZ?
TM got some ostrich in him? If I can’t see him, he can’t see me?

If I cannot see someone, then they cannot see where I am nor where I go once I leave here?

Doesn’t make sense to me.
Imho, it seems perfectly possible to not be able to see someone who can see me.
:shrug:

It also seems possible that if I move from cover, that someone who I cannot see while I am hiding may be able to see me once I stop hiding.

[Shodan]

@PatriotX

TM knew that GZ had lost sight of TM because TM had lost sight of GZ?

And because of Martin’s statement to Dee Dee that the last time he saw Zimmerman was while Zimmerman was in his car.
[QUOTE=Dee Dee]
So I said, ‘What’s going on?’ He said this man is still watching him. Like in a car…so he about to run from the back. So then I told him, go to his dad house. Run to his Dad house.

So, next thing I hear, he gettin’ run. And I can hear that the wind blowin’…

And then…he say he lost him.

[/QUOTE]
So, Martin said that Zimmerman was watching him from a car. Then Martin ran to his father’s house, and thus “lost” Zimmerman. And then doubled back and went looking for Zimmerman. Which, again, demonstrates that Martin did not refrain from entering his father’s house out of any fear that Zimmerman would find out where Martin lived. Martin was not afraid of this, because he believed (correctly, as it turns out) that Zimmerman was not in sight, and not watching him.

So the notion that Martin was afraid of Zimmerman is probably not true. Because if it were true, Martin would not have doubled back and attacked Zimmerman. Nor is it likely that Martin refrained from entering his father’s house out of any fear of Zimmerman’s seeing where he lived - Martin demonstrated by his words and actions that he believed, correctly, that Zimmerman was not in sight, could not see him, and had no way of knowing where Martin lived, and that Martin could have simply walked into the back door and been perfectly safe, both from being shot and from having Zimmerman know where he lived. But Martin did not do so - he went back and attacked Zimmerman.

This doesn’t seem so difficult. ‘The last time I saw the white guy, he was watching me from a car. I don’t see any car and I don’t see any white guy. I must have lost him.’

That is what the evidence (Dee Dee’s testimony, the NEN transcripts, Martin’s movements) seem to indicate happened. There is no evidence that Martin feared letting Zimmerman know where he lived, which is the rather hare-brained suggestion that started this tangent.

Regards,
Shodan

[Stoid]

@Steophan

Wanting someone to be convicted despite the fact that their actions were legal because you dislike those actions is fucking disgusting.

Ooo! Can I play, too?

Let’s see…wanting someone to get away with murder by pretending their actions were legal because you support loose self-defense laws/carry laws or any other reason is fucking disgusting.

Next.

Until such point as they are changed, you should judge his actions by those laws.

I do, and he broke them.

There is no evidence that Zimmerman started the fight, and** there is hard evidence that he stopped following Martin. **

Someone needs to think about what the term “hard evidence” means. Cuz there’s not only no hard evidence that he stopped, there’s no evidence at all, and some evidence suggesting he kept right on. (Of course, if you believe that Zimmerman is telling the truth, then that’s some evidence. Definitely not “hard”, however…)

There is evidence that Martin chose to return to Zimmerman rather than go home,

Nope, no evidence at all. There is extreme speculation based on the vapor of DeeDee’s impressively poor communication skills.

and we know that only Zimmerman was injured.

Well, yeah, if you don’t count the big hole in Martin’s chest.

Now, it’s possible that Martin felt insulted or threatened by Zimmerman following him, and it’s also possible that Zimmerman said something to insult him (although we have no evidence of that). That wouldn’t give Martin reason to attack him, though.

What a strange choice…“insult” - who around here, or anywhere, is suggesting that Martin acted from being insulted? Other than to color your statement in a manner that serves your narrative, why in the world would you choose that word, especially when the far more likely, and much more openly discussed possibility is that Martin acted from feeling threatened.

Wow, way to undermine your own credibility as someone speaking impartially. Dayum.

@Magiver

there are no inconsistencies in his story.

Only if you ignore them.

Let’s go back to the one you brought up: Martin’s arms. Where were they?

A great deal of Zimmerman’s narrative is supported independent of it. He could be in a coma never have said a word and it still points to Martin going BACK to where Zimmerman was and brutally assaulting him.

Quite an assertion. How about you show us how that is.

@Magiver

**Dee Dee states that Martin tells her he is at his house **

DeeDee’s words:

He say he ain’t goin’ run, cause he say he right by his father house

When I am right by somewhere, I might still be 3 blocks away, depending on where I started. When I am** at **someplace, I am no distance away. Plus, that’s DeeDee’s retelling, hardly an absolute as to the words Trayvon himself used. (I listened to her whole statement twice, and I was crawling out of my skin listening to her struggle to communicate…Yegads.)

@DragonAsh

Zimmerman could have gone back to his truck if he chose. He chose not to. Instead, he continued wandering the area searching for Martin. There -is- plenty of evidence for this, because that’s the only reason he’d have for not going back to his truck.

Yep yep yep.

@Steophan

And the only reason Martin didn’t go home is because he was looking for Zimmerman.

Evidence supporting this? Zero. What evidence we have suggests that he was actively avoiding Zimmerman, so this is something you’re just making up.

[PatriotX]

@Shodan

And because of Martin’s statement to Dee Dee that the last time he saw Zimmerman was while Zimmerman was in his car. So, Martin said that Zimmerman was watching him from a car. Then Martin ran to his father’s house, and thus “lost” Zimmerman. And then doubled back and went looking for Zimmerman. Which, again, demonstrates that Martin did not refrain from entering his father’s house out of any fear that Zimmerman would find out where Martin lived. Martin was not afraid of this, because he believed (correctly, as it turns out) that Zimmerman was not in sight, and not watching him.

So the notion that Martin was afraid of Zimmerman is probably not true. Because if it were true, Martin would not have doubled back and attacked Zimmerman. Nor is it likely that Martin refrained from entering his father’s house out of any fear of Zimmerman’s seeing where he lived - Martin demonstrated by his words and actions that he believed, correctly, that Zimmerman was not in sight, could not see him, and had no way of knowing where Martin lived, and that Martin could have simply walked into the back door and been perfectly safe, both from being shot and from having Zimmerman know where he lived. But Martin did not do so - he went back and attacked Zimmerman.

This doesn’t seem so difficult. ‘The last time I saw the white guy, he was watching me from a car. I don’t see any car and I don’t see any white guy. I must have lost him.’

That is what the evidence (Dee Dee’s testimony, the NEN transcripts, Martin’s movements) seem to indicate happened. There is no evidence that Martin feared letting Zimmerman know where he lived, which is the rather hare-brained suggestion that started this tangent.

Regards,
Shodan

So you are going with the I-can’t-see-him-so-he-can’t-see-me thing then.

It has been rightly noted that this line of reasoning is not universal. The example of GZ being reluctant to give out his address even though he had lost TM is evidence that the ostrich thinking is not for everyone.

Since we can tell that at least one person, GZ, does not subscribe to the idea that not being able to see person A does not mean that person A cannot see him, it seems possible, if not plausible that the absence of evidence–a lack of visual contact–is not evidence of absence.

I don’t see why it is unreasonable to think that TM may have held some of the same ideas about GZ’s location as GZ had about TM’s location. Namely the idea that just because the other person could not be seen it doesn’t mean that the other person cannot see.

imho anyway

[PatriotX]

@Shodan

There is no evidence that Martin feared letting Zimmerman know where he lived, which is the rather hare-brained suggestion that started this tangent.

Of course there is such evidence–TM didn’t go straight inside that house.

[crowmanyclouds]

@Stoid

… DeeDee’s words:

He say he ain’t goin’ run, cause he say he right by his father house

…

I’m sorry but posting verbatim quotes isn’t allowed in this thread . . . please consider your interpretation of what Dee Dee said and post that instead.

CMC fnord!